scrimshaw horn fakes

[ffffg]

i just bought two beautifull scrimshaw horns at a pawn shop for a song... about the same price as in a regular gun shop for one plane mass mfg horn.. my question is, is a pair of horns, one rifle powder one primer size, one with wolf very well done and some mountians, other with deer , well done but not as nice as the wolf,. sculptureing on the small end of the horn, rings and flat spots to make the colored part of the horn come down in peakes...the more i look at them the nicer they are.. and a nicely turnedwood back end.. sorry i cant easily do photos, i have to enlist my son across town, and i only ask this on speciall occastions...is anyone importing quality scrimshaw and horns from the orient or something? they are pretty new, that is not yellowed and knocked around.. never had powder in them.. they, by quality means seem like very expensive horn set .. have any of you seen nice scrimshaw that has been mass manufactured somehow, or am i really lucky to get some custome horns?... dave

 

The Hournable Compamy of Horners reccomends that you date the horn (example) A horn with a 1770 date can be dated by dating it in the cartuche box with the real date in roman numerals (example)MMV11 is 2007

 

[Many Klatch]

I have seen a lot of fake scrimshaw whales teeth for sale. There are stories of guys going around with cameras at Rendezvous taking pictures of hand made items. The pictures are emailed to China where they copy the items and send hundreds of copies back. I wasn't aware that horns were being copied, but there is no reason that they can't be.

If you like the horns then use them. If you have a real suspicion that they might be real, take them to a museum to be checked.

Many Klatch

 

[dlpowell]

If your a serious collector there are numerous reference books on powder horns. Old horns look old, have scars, and the finish on some can be somewhat wavy. Also the wood plug ages, becomes extremely light in texture and feel. Most all modern replicas have the wrong pins used to secure the plug.

DP

 

[ffffg]

these horns have really loooong plugs going into the horn itself.. i really like the horns. i collecti ivory scrimshaw and the workmanship is quite good, sharp, and like its newly cut.. no wear on them.. they were probably recently made.. but of decent quality.. oh the scrimshaw is signed mw or mn with the second letter lowere than the first.. deep letering with ink in grooves, it looks like, instead of oil and lampblack.. im really starting to take to them anyway.. dave...

 

[blacksmithman64]

:cursing: Ain't we got enough chinese junk without them copyin our 'cooterments?! I for one will not allow my stuff to be photographed at a shoot now,I have invested a lot of time and money into researching old horns for authenticities sake.Is there any telltale signs of these thieves who undercut the American craftsmen? :cursing:

 

[Twisted_1in66]

My wife makes soft-sculpture dolls as well as selling patterns for them. She dreams them up herself and does a lot of hand stitching on each one. When we first moved to Vermont in 1998 (been in VA since 2005), she had a snowman doll that sold out at every craft show. Some guy came around with his high dollar 35mm camera taking pictures of things at the show, and the next year Jo-Ann's Fabrics was selling a "made in China" copy of her doll. Nobody takes pictures around her booth now.

It's one thing if you license a company to make copies and they pay you a royalty, but this was just outright theft. And, they know you don't have the money to hire and retain a lawyer to go after them.

Good news is that the people who value quality hand-made items won't settle for the cheap imported imitations.

Twisted_1in66 :thumbsup:

 

[blacksmithman64]

I agree with ya twisted,Its a shame.If I ketch some flatlander takin'pitchers of my stuff, they're gonna git a good ol' 18th century floggin! But you are right, 'skinners are pretty particular folks and I don't think any self respectin'smokepole shooter is gonna cotton to some imported junk.

 

[ffffg]

i found a pair of horns with remarkable simularity on ebay to the ones i bought.. its ebay number is 11007460231 .. mine have the same plug shapes, the same flats where the front strap is, and the same rings on the plug end.. the back end turning are almost identical.. the difference is mine are typeical white colored horns with nice scrimshaw.. any one recognize this horn style?? or maker.. thanks dave..

 

[blacksmithman64]

I'd have to say those are cureton horns recently made from october country,they are available white or antiqued.My understanding is the fella who was making the horns retired,and October country is reproducing the horns with his permission.You might be able to get the whole story on october country's website and also compare your horns.

 

[Okwaho]

Stumblin'Wolf is correct.These horns were almost certainly made by my old friend Earl Cureton in East Tennessee or his successor in the business.I have known Earl for many years and he is in fact retired.His work is instantly recognizable by the unique finish he used.He also built copies of old horns and did several for me.Occasionally one of his horns will turn up with a single flat ring about 1 1/2 -2"from the mouth and the spout between the ring and the mouth will be fluted. He copied that horn from a 1757 North Carolina horn that I own with a flat base.Incidentally the Dixie horns described as made by Cureton were made by Earl.
Tom Patton

 

[ffffg]

good shooting you guys,, wow.. i called mountain top trading post,, what a nice guy!! and he said the horns were made in idaho, and now in california.. so they have a lot of AMERICAN history.. somewhere down the line these got scrimshawed.. the bigger one with the best scrim shaw has the plug broken and replaced.. but the shape on the ebay sales site i listed ( 11007460231 )has the tappered flat bottom spout plug that is on my little horn.... anyone have any idea what age or era that plug on these horns comes from? this type plug is what is on the primer horn and probably was on the matching main horn.. i think these are probably worth more, and richer in history than i orriganlly thought,, escpecially if i can find out who mn (mw) is.. thanks dave..

 

[Okwaho]

If your a serious collector there are numerous reference books on powder horns. Old horns look old, have scars, and the finish on some can be somewhat wavy. Also the wood plug ages, becomes extremely light in texture and feel. Most all modern replicas have the wrong pins used to secure the plug.

DP

Don raises some interesting points with which I agree.Fake carved horns can sometimes be difficult to detect without extreme magnification.Many fakers use power tools and the
designs will be uniformly deep.There are other ways to tell fakes but the very best fakers use correct OLD horns to embellish with new or enhanced carving.

There several well known fakes extant and they are not necessarily limited to individuals Museums are also susceptible.

In the Metropolitan Museum of Art is a good example of a old horn with new carving.This horn which purports to record the killing of Gen. Fraser by Timothy Murphy is an old horn but the carving has too many modern design elements to be old.The horn is part of a well known collection given to the Museum and was illustrated by Stephen V. Grancsay in"Anerican Engraved PowderHorns",Acc.no.37.131.3 See P.20 for a description as well as Plates XI and XXVII where it is shown as Cat.No.17,"The horn is old...but the engraving is considered modern",Grancsay.
See also "Muzzle Blasts"April 1980 PP.18-19 for a letter to Sharon Cunningham {Editor} by a reader claiming that this horn proved conclusively the legend of the killing of Gen. Simon Fraser by Timothy Murphy at Saratoga.I called Sharon and told her I was writing a letter on this horn but she told me there was ton of people ahead of me so I never did.
See also Horn No.21Plates XI and XXIX. This horn is discussed by Swayze below.

See Also "Engraved Powder Horns of the French and Indian War and the Revolutionary War Era" by Nathan L. Swayze, PP.198-206 illustrating one correct horn two fakes and one questionable horn plus some excellent information and warnings on fake horns.
I hope this helps on the subject.
Tom Patton

 

[ricktwin]

I too have been watching the sales on Ebay for many years. I am a member of the Honourable Company of Horners and I am always keeping a look out for imitations trying to be passed as originals. There are some very good artists out there who have been making, engraving and staining horns and not putting any makers mark or date on them to prevent the novice from mistaking them as originals. They do the engraving and may put in a date, such as " John Doe ... His Horn ... 1795" leading someone who didn't know better to believe that the horn was made in 1795. I mark mine with my initials and date in small engraing just above the base plug. I don't fill these lines with ink, so they can go un-noticed without close examination, but anyone looking closely will see them and know it is a current make. As in most other areas nowdays, unfortunately, it's "buyers beware". Just remember, if it seems too good to be true, it probably isn't. Good luck in your collecting.

Ron

 

[blacksmithman64]

Ron, thats a neat idea to "sign" the horn but not ink it. I sell a few on ebay but usually sign it "made ye by..." with a modern or old date,buyers choice, but if I use the old date I be sure to put a modern "date of manufacture" in very small letters near the plug and on the bottom or back.

 

[blacksmithman64]

Ya ever gonna post some pictures?! I want to see these puppies!