Searching for M1803 Harpers Ferry detailed specs/history

[Dusty_Traveler]

I've been looking at 1803's a lot lately, and I have a couple of questions for the gurus. All of what I'm finding on the internet gives roughly the same history as the next search result, with no detailed specs...

~Does anyone know of a source or a book where the detailed specs and/or history of the Harpers Ferry M1803 Type I and II rifles can be found?

~Was the M1803 arsenal built in any other caliber besides .54? I have found examples of .60 and .65 caliber 1803's on the internet that claim they were arsenal produced in small batch numbers, but I haven't verified this by other known sources. If true, were these larger caliber 1803's rifled or smoothbore?

~Excluding percussion conversions, were there any variants of the M1803 rifle other than Type I and Type II specifically?

~What were the original barrel specs such as twist rate, rifling profile, radiused or square bottom grooves, groove depth, bore diameter.

~Was the original load built with a fabric patched ball, or was it a paper cartridge?

What a great looking service weapon!

 

[Johnny Tremain]

Go to The Rifle Shoppe dot com.

Jess Melot knows more about 1803s than any one living.

A right good gentleman too.

 

[Carney Pace]

George Moller is an author of 2 or 3 books om U.S. Military arms.
I visited with him about 1803's concerning whether or not Lewis and Clark Journey carried them. He said he spent 6 weeks at Harpers Ferry checking deliveries, shipments, workers, etc.
He said that the stock material for the 1803 was received at the arsenal 6 months after the L&C expedition started up the
river.
.54 caliber, anything else has been altered, 1803 model and 1814 variation,
Check your local library for inter library loan.

Hope this helps

 

[FlinterNick]

I've been looking at 1803's a lot lately, and I have a couple of questions for the gurus. All of what I'm finding on the internet gives roughly the same history as the next search result, with no detailed specs...

~Does anyone know of a source or a book where the detailed specs and/or history of the Harpers Ferry M1803 Type I and II rifles can be found?

~Was the M1803 arsenal built in any other caliber besides .54? I have found examples of .60 and .65 caliber 1803's on the internet that claim they were arsenal produced in small batch numbers, but I haven't verified this by other known sources. If true, were these larger caliber 1803's rifled or smoothbore?

~Excluding percussion conversions, were there any variants of the M1803 rifle other than Type I and Type II specifically?

~What were the original barrel specs such as twist rate, rifling profile, radiused or square bottom grooves, groove depth, bore diameter.

~Was the original load built with a fabric patched ball, or was it a paper cartridge?

What a great looking service weapon!

The rifle shoppe has the most comprehensive part sets for any 1803 rifle.

The very first version of the 1803 rifle was not really an 1803 rifle at all. It was often called short rifle, which omitted some key characteristics of your typical 1803 it had smaller lock, no brass nose band and The Underrib was Hollow sheet steel.
This is theorized to have been the rifle used by Lewis and Clark.

The 1803 variants really come down to the barrel length 33 and 36” and some subtle changes to the lock and ramrod brass tip

 

[Cooleys]

Here is a model 1800 I just completed from The Rifle Shoppe parts. The M1800 has the octagons rounded (below the stock line), a tapered/flared barrel and round bottom rifling. There are other subtle differences including the rear sight and front ramrod pipe, but overall it’s very similar to the production 1803. Jess is a wealth of information and I called him numerous times during the build about details. I did add the brass nose band, as the only known existing M1800 was found with one. The lock is fairly fast for a larger lock and sparks well. No real complaints on his parts or components. If you decide to go with TRS be sure to ask if all parts are in stock, if not then it could be months (or longer) before it comes in.
Search for an article called “Lewis and Clark Short Rifle” on greatwar.com , it has good information (some is opinion) on the M1800.
I recently carried my M1800 over 20 miles and shot a bull elk on day 3 with it. If there is a joy in carrying a muzzleloader, then this rifle is it! Lightweight, balances well and short.

 

[Notchy Bob]

That is a nice looking rifle!

Notchy Bob

 

[FlinterNick]

My 1803 Rifle by the Rifle Shoppe by Dave Stalvo of Lodgewood MFG.

Dave did a wonderful job proof marking the barrel and stock and assembling the gun for me, i highly recommend him.

I’m in anticipation of a 36” 1803 rifle kit, sometime in 2023, this one I’m building with an 1814 lock and extra wood around the lock panel and side plate area.

I’m currently building an extra 1803 lock to sell.

Per my conversations with Jess Melot, the 1803 was very experimental by both Harpers Ferry and Springfield with Springfield often frowning on the rifle as being too heavy and impractical with an undersized military lock.

Historically the lock was well known for its troubles due to the geometry of the bridle / sear and tumbler. Having assembled a few of these locks. The pan bolster is too narrow parallel to the plate making the mainspring set to high causing it to be lighter, a pre-load on the lower leaf is necessary for optimal mainspring power. The sear spring is extremely delicate, i replaced both springs with hand made springs from 1080 steel that are little heavier than the 6150 cast springs. The lock internals really need to be hardened and drawn back to around 400 degrees. A few of these locks I’ve seen had the internals carburized which doesn’t last very long.

Per Jess in late 1819 there were very few 1803 rifles made with the 1814 rifle lock and a beefier stock, the 1814 lock is a much higher quality lock, very few of these were made, only a few hundred until the project contract was awarded to Star.

For a military arm, the rifle has many flaws, its not a well balanced rifle because of the heavy barrel and rib, the barrel and rib alone account for around 7lbs of the guns nearly 10lbs of weight. The lack of sling swivels is a bit of a mystery, and is attributed as to why so many were captured by the British and Canadians in the War of 1812, in retreat many troops simply chose to not carry their rifles and opted for slung muskets. The idea as to why there were no sling swivels is becuase Dearborn stated a riflemen’s rifle needed to always be at the ready.

 

[wganz]

LEWIS AND CLARK SHORT RIFLE – Great War Militaria
Below are pix gleaned from that site:
https://greatwar.com/wwi-links/lewis-and-clark-short-rifle/

 

[wganz]

George Moller is an author of 3 books on U.S. Military arms. [edited]

American Military Shoulder Arms, Volume I: Colonial and Revolutionary War Arms

American Military Shoulder Arms, Volume II: From the 1790s to the End of the Flintlock Period

American Military Shoulder Arms, Volume III: Flintlock Alterations and Muzzleloading Percussion Shoulder Arms, 1840-1865

 

[Johnny Tremain]

Oh yeah, Jess has the original armory stamps. My barrels went from Green Mt to him, got stamped then sent to me.

 

[Dusty_Traveler]

Gentlemen, thank you for all the replies, the book recommendations, and sharing the photos of your gorgeous rifles! I have some reading and studying to do now.

 

[Notchy Bob]

I found something which might (or might not) be pertinent to this discussion. I was reading in The Autobiography of Pioneer John Brown, 1820-1896, and found this reference to "...one of the guns prepared for the 'Clark and Lewis' expedition," down near the bottom of this excerpt:



We wonder if the "cap-and-ball rifle" described above might have been a converted M1803, like this original from the Lodgewood Mfg. website:



"Uncle John Brown" in the text above was a Mormon pioneer who crossed the plains thirteen times guiding immigrants to Utah. The "old home" referred to was in southern Illinois. We don't know how Grandfather Crain acquired the rifle, but his home was not all that far from St. Louis, which was the "jumping off" point for the Lewis and Clark expedition.

It's fun to speculate.

Notchy Bob

 

[TDM]

The 1803 is just a beautiful weapon. It and the Baker are my favorites of that era.

 

[FlinterNick]

I found something which might (or might not) be pertinent to this discussion. I was reading in The Autobiography of Pioneer John Brown, 1820-1896, and found this reference to "...one of the guns prepared for the 'Clark and Lewis' expedition," down near the bottom of this excerpt:

View attachment 171768

We wonder if the "cap-and-ball rifle" described above might have been a converted M1803, like this original from the Lodgewood Mfg. website:

View attachment 171769

"Uncle John Brown" in the text above was a Mormon pioneer who crossed the plains thirteen times guiding immigrants to Utah. The "old home" referred to was in southern Illinois. We don't know how Grandfather Crain acquired the rifle, but his home was not all that far from St. Louis, which was the "jumping off" point for the Lewis and Clark expedition.

It's fun to speculate.

Notchy Bob

When the CSA seized the harpers ferry Arsenal they basically were able to secure stockpiles of flintlock arms that were converted and left in storage. Many of these converted 1803’s have CSA markings on them. Converted 1803’s were done almost the same was as converted 1817 common rifles, drumb and nipple with a conversion mainspring. The 1803 had to have sling swivels mounted on the rib and a stud was added to the back of the trigger guard (like a jaeger).

However the issue with converted 1803’s is that they were going on nearly 50-60 years old by the time of the civil war, most barrels were bored out to smoothbore in 58 or 62 and also needed a milled on bayonet lug. The more common conversion flintlock rifle was the 1814 and 1817 contract rifles, and Hall Rifles they were made better and saw limited service in the Mexican American War and Texas Revolution. 1803 rifles saw heavy use in the War of 1812, Seminole wars and creek wars most were in poor condition by the time of the civil war.

 

[wganz]

Gentlemen, thank you for all the replies, the book recommendations, and sharing the photos of your gorgeous rifles! I have some reading and studying to do now.

To clarify, I was reposting pix that were found on the linked site and were not from my 'collection'.
Only in my dreams do I own such a collection.
An 1803 is way down about #9 on my spreadsheet of kits to get.

 

[Red Owl]

Dusty: try calling Harper's Ferry National Park. They have a good collection and a couple of the guys there know their stuff- they might be able to help.

 

[FlinterNick]

I found something which might (or might not) be pertinent to this discussion. I was reading in The Autobiography of Pioneer John Brown, 1820-1896, and found this reference to "...one of the guns prepared for the 'Clark and Lewis' expedition," down near the bottom of this excerpt:

View attachment 171768

We wonder if the "cap-and-ball rifle" described above might have been a converted M1803, like this original from the Lodgewood Mfg. website:

View attachment 171769

"Uncle John Brown" in the text above was a Mormon pioneer who crossed the plains thirteen times guiding immigrants to Utah. The "old home" referred to was in southern Illinois. We don't know how Grandfather Crain acquired the rifle, but his home was not all that far from St. Louis, which was the "jumping off" point for the Lewis and Clark expedition.

It's fun to speculate.

Notchy Bob

This is a late model 1803 rifle, 36” barrel with a slightly heavier lock and more wood around the lock area are forearm, and a brass tipped rammer with some subtle changes to the rammer pipes. These have dates that vary, some as late as 1819. Saw extensive service in the War of 1812, Seminole Wars and Creek Wars. These rifles were built very sturdy and their service life exceed expectations. The 1803’s that were converted before the Civil War are often auctioned off as ‘re-converted’ with a vent liner and updated flintlock.

This model would not have been available for the Lewis and Clark expedition, the earliest models of that time were the short versions of the 1803, more or less the prototype of the later 1803 and various contract rifles (Dearborn rifles and Virginia contract rifles) with Derginer, Tyrone and Ketland Locks. These contract rifles are more or less styled as Lancaster Rifles in .45-49 caliber full stocked, military stamped.