Self defense story.

True story.
A man makes his living (honest living) as a dealer in antiques, of all kinds, cars, coins, stamps, whatever. The man is a bachelor that lives alone in a nice developement just outside the City where I was a copper.
The man is talking to his son in California on the phone and just happens to be cleaning his 9mm Smith, with the loaded magazine on the coffee table.
The neighborhood dope dealing scumbucket punks two doors down decide to rob the guy who usually has a substantial amount of cash in his house. The punks decide to shoot the homeowner right off 'cause they know he has guns.
The two punks, wearing holloween masks, kick in the front door while the homeowner, still on the pnone yells to his son, "call the sheriff, I'm being robbed" and hangs up. Now mind you the son is in Calif. and has no idea WHAT sheriff to call.
The punks barge in shooting, the homeowner slams the loaded clip home and returns fire. The punk misses, the homeowner hits punk one NINE times, punk two, being the smarter of the pair promptly [censored] his pants and runs home!
Punk one is badly shot up, including several solid body hits from 9mm harball, and one thru the HEAD!
The punk lives. The homeowner is charged with nothing. Punks one and two go to prison, punk one with brain damage, and blind.
BOTH punks sue! Excessive use of force don'cha'know!
They of course lost the suit, but homeowner is out a terrible amount of trauma AND substantial monitary loss to defend himself.
Homeowner eventually sues his own homeowners ins. for NOT paying for his defense and WINS the claim!
Much better if YOUR story is the ONLY story!
( I got a million of 'em!)

 

Some of my friends are in law enforcement. They say don't shoot unless you have to, but make sure you kill if you do shoot. Makes the lawsuits less likely although the scumbag's family can still do it.

 

[atr]

124 gr. Black Talon jacketed hollow point would have been a better choice . Why anyone would use ball ammo to bet thier lives on is beyond me . A 9 mil is marginal at best but if you have to make the most of what you have at least load it with something that goes nasty on the one who recieves it . In some locations Black Talon sales are restricted to law enforcement only so Winchester has another line called Ranger . Exact same thing as a Black Talon but with a new monicer .

 

[Huntinfool]

Hey my 9 mm Black Talons are 137 grs. there are a lot of good expanding bullets to be had. But none as good as the BT if you ask me. That's why I bought a local gun store out of them a couple years ago. Bought 300 of them and still got most of em sold a few to close friends.

My biggest concern isn't being sued it's accidentally shootin' myself with one of them boogers LOL! I've seen what they can do to a deer. A feller could die from being shot in the foot with one of them things. :blah: :winking:

YMH&OS
Chuck Goodall
"The Original Huntin' Fool"
&
Kanawha Ranger Scribe

 

[Stumpkiller]

Why anyone would use ball ammo to bet thier lives on is beyond me .

100% feed & ejection reliability, and they penetrate interior walls & doors for partially obscured targets. In a .45ACP w230gr it is a stopper. If you using a 9MM you're not taking it seriously to begin with. I watched a sheriff shoot a deer that had been crippled by a car in front of my house three times in the head with a 9MM without killing the poor thing. I clubbed it with a rock because I couldn't stand it any longer. I'd choose a .36 Coly Navy w/lead ball over a FMJ 9MM.

 

Keep in mind that the Nazi's developed the 9mm into quite an efficient round from a SUBGUN . As a pistol round it sucks.
I loved it in the MP-5 147 soft point sub-sonic with sound supressor. Set the thing on 3 shot burst and it came into it's own as a stopper.
But in a semi-auto pistol???????Naw, I'd rather have a good birddog6 hunting knife! ::

 

[Huntinfool]

Hey Stumpy,

I've got to disagree with on the 9mm thing I bet if I shoot someone with my Glock 9 they will know I'm serious about it.

Plus, I've dispatched 2 or 3 deer with a 9mm and seen Sheriffs dispatch them. I'd say yer Sheriff flinched or just didn't hit in the right place. Heck, I've dispatch 2 or maybe 3 vehicle hit deer with a .22 LR pistol.

I've got a Black Talon .45 cal in my collection that was fired accidentally hitting a lamp at the motel I was Security for. I got the lamp too it's over my right shoulder as I type this. The bullet went through the lamp the wall and two pieces of plywood on the other side of the wall one was 3/4 the other 1/2 inch. It came to rest on the floor after smackin' a piece of stainless steel restaurant equipment. It put a silver dollar sized dent about 1/4 inch deep in the 1/8 inch piece of steel.

The moral of this story is that the Black Talon didn't open up it is made to open due to the hydraulics of hitting fluid type material such as a body!

I've also got the same cal. BT that was shot into a milk jug it popped open on the first milk jug full of water.

I have two that were stopped by whitetails they opened and performed flawlessly. You don't think the Government would've stopped the sale of them and kept them all to themselves unless they worked great did ya. LOL!

Also Black Talons are shaped with an ogive very similar to a hard ball for feeding reliability. They are loaded with a powder additive that gives off a lower blue type of flash so as not to blind ya if yer in combat at night. Incidentally when 75% (at least) of gun fights take place.

I don't feel handicapped at all no Sir!


YMH&OS
Chuck Goodall
"The Original Huntin' Fool"
&
Kanawha Ranger Scribe

 

[Stumpkiller]

I don't want to degrade this thread (I'm surprised we're getting away with it this long!) into a pissing contest. The 9MM certainly can do the job, but even Glock gives you 17 of 'em cause it takes that many to equal 8 .45 rounds. ::

It is suspected that Mossad 'erased' any number of undesireables with Beretta Bobcat .22's in various countries after the Munich Olympics terrorist atrocity. In the hands of a calm pistoleer it makes less difference what the caliber is. That's why I would encourage anyone interested in using a pistol for home defense to fire it in a practical or combat league to get the motions ingrained to be "instinctive."

Some karate training and a 3 D-cell Mag Lite (or that tomohawk in your possibles drawer) would be a better choice if you aren't up to a pistol. No one ever went to jail for clobbering an intruder with a flashlight. :: If he's got a gun and you don't: surrender but watch for a weakness.

By the way. My post mortum on the deer (before it wet into my freezer) was one to the jaw, one through the nasal cavity about 2" from the front of the nose, and one that entered just below the base of the antler pad from behind and curved with the skull under the skin and exited the eye socket. Three non-fatal head wounds from 6 feet. Poor shooting (the deer was hobbling), but I'd gamble a .45 in the jaw would be a TKO from pure head trauma to the skeleton. Maybe not - deer astound me in the punishment they can absorb. I've shot two wounded deer in the head with my .45 and they expired instantly.

 

[Huntinfool]

Well, I assumed we are getting away with it cause we're in the General Interest category. I'm not trying to get in a pis--g contest with you. For one thing I agree that a .45 is better in most ways but if you carry one concealed for a few months you may come to the same decision I did.

I carried a 1911 Springfield Armory .45 for about 2 years. Heck I'm still walkin' sideways and that was 10 years ago I quit carrying it. I resisted the blocky, ugly looking Glocks for a long time. But hey, pretty is as pretty does and after I fired a fellows a few times I liked the way it shot. Plus my .45 weighed in at 41 ounces unloaded and the Model 19 Glock weighed in at 30 ounces fully loaded. At the time Glock hadn't come out with their .45s.

I also just wanted to inform you of a few things about the Black Talons you seemed to not know. But maybe I was wrong I've been wrong at least once before! LOL! At any rate I read and studied all carry guns for over a year before I settled on a 9mm Glock. I read everything I could get my hands on and tried several weapons out also!

I do shoot combat courses a lot and that is the reason I switched to 9mm over .45 I can simply hit what I'm aiming at better and faster less recoil means more handiness for me. I've ran somewhere in the neighborhood of 18500 rounds through my 19 without a single malfunction! Moreover It's only been cleaned twice in 11 years ya just can't hurt the darn things it's still clean as can be. I couldn't get through a box of ammo without a stovepipe or some kind of malfunction in my .45. For a right out of the box gun it's hard to beat a Glock.

Plus more firepower in number of shots. Hey I think we can agree that neither one of us would like to take a shot in center mass with either cal. At least I know I wouldn't. LOL! :nono: You can have the last word my friend!

Your Friend,
Chuck

 

[AdirondakDD]

100% feed & ejection reliability, and they penetrate interior walls & doors for partially obscured targets.

I am setting up a shooting range on my property. I have 12 x 12 railroad ties stacked on top of each other and some 12 x 8. There are 2 piles 8 inches seperating them. I thought this should do it. My Sprinfield M1A in 308 military ball(FMJ) put one round through both piles. I admit it was one out of 10 but these are big fat pieces of wood. We added a third row. Ball ammo penetrates walls.

Lou

 

[Stumpkiller]

Hey I think we can agree that neither one of us would like to take a shot in center mass with either cal. At least I know I wouldn't.

Too true.

I have a little chopped 3.5" Officer's Model with some Ed Brown magic added that gets me 8 shots in a small package (one of his barrel bushings w/recoil guide rod, gold anodized aluminum trigger, spring kit & sear stoning) . Takes a bit of getting used to but it is a lot of whomp in a fist. If I'm in the field, except during archery-only season, it's along. Sure beats a fly rod for comfort when you're fishing alone.

I used to shoot a Browning HiPower 9MM in PPC competition. It was sweet, but I did better with my 6" M-14, K-38 DA. I still squirrel hunt with that S&W pistol.

Grandpa (a 1st Lieutenant in WW1 who saw action at Chateau-Thierry & Belleau Wood but NEVER spoke of it) taught me to shoot pistol when I was pre-teen with his 1911 (I still have the scar on my left thumb to remind me of the first shoot I took. NEVER wrap your left thumb over your right! OUCH!). I guess that alone keeps me on the .45 in spite of what else is out there.

 

[BrownBear]

If you really want to check the effectiveness of a handgun caliber and specific bullet, use it to take a deer or two and compare the results with other calibers the same way. Not much way to compare to stopping power in extremis, but a pretty good way to test them against each other. Living 30 years in an area with a five-month season and a five-deer limit has let me do an awful lot of that. I won't post the results because YMMV, but it sure made up my mind about what to carry on my hip.

 

[Stumpkiller]

In deer, the .45 ACP is woefully inadequate at much beyond 25 yards even with a hollowpoint.

But if a deer breaks into my house I would pull out my 7-1/2" bbl. .44 Mag single-shot Contender, or my .54 M/L rifle, better still. I wouldn't figure he was there to murder my family and me or carry off my possessions.

 

We all have our preferences......for me, life begins at a minimum of 44 Spl. (the 696 S & W I carry) or better yet, 45 cal. Bullets are either truncated cone in the 44 or hardball in the 45. I'll take penetration every time over expansion. I carried a Springfield 1911-A1 off and on for 3 years, concealed, in a belt slide holster, alternating with the 696 depending on the season, and the 1911 was always more comfortable to carry. I never developed a list from it's weight and still carry it occasionally. If I'm in the back country where toothsome critters are around I always have my Freedom Arms Mod 97 in 45 Colt close......and it's loaded with hard cast, 300 gr. LFN from Mid-Kansas Cast Bullets at a chronographed 1150 fps. I believe that is adequate medicine.

I never much cared for the 9mm and I've had 5 or 6 over the last 30 years. But I'm not real keen on semi-autos either, except for " ol' slabsides ". I suppose it's an alright cartridge but to put it simply, for me, the hole in the barrel ain't big enough!

I never could get used to the idea of a 9mm or dishwasher safe handguns.....

Vic

 

[Huntinfool]

I love my Glock but then when I was motel security I had to fist fight more than I had to gun fight. It got all scratched up a couple of times when I ended up on the ground.

The owner of the motel owned three bars two in the motel complex and one down the road a quarter of a mile (a show bar). I carried the .45 when I first started but I dropped it once in a scuffle.

Two things happened to change my mind one there was a good size dent in the primer of the cartridge in the chamber as I carried it cocked and locked. If that wasn't enough I thought what if one of the drunks I was fighting would somehow get a hold of my piece. Either scenario I could end up with a .45 Black Talon in my A--! I didn't like that idea at all!

I had to carry it well hid so as not to freak customers out. But in 8 years of scuffling the Glock stayed on my side. And I never felt undergunned with 15 Black Talons plus a spare mag on the other hip and two 30 round mags behind the seat of my truck!

Sometimes ya have to compromise I guess. I worked in an unincorporated area, if we called the law it always took them 30 to 45 minutes to show. So I had to handle most every situation myself, a few times the Sheriffs called me for backup.

BTW I still love my .44 mag Smith Super Deluxe revolver and .45 1911 also.
Chuck

 

[shmrck1]

maxiball
in all truth its a matter of pulling the trigger &
i do believe that does require certain ammount of training.
but even without training a person knows when they are in mortal danger(as they persive it) and the answer should be
deadly!! in other words don't shoot unless your intentions
are to kill!!!!!!!!!!!
keep this going- it's important

I am snake-eyes /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/twocents.gif

 

[Huntinfool]

That's very true Snake eyes. That's why I carry my Glock 19 loaded with Black Talons. I ain't about to pull the trigger unless I aim to kill someone.

I have a friend who carries a vector (tracer) loaded to fire first. He says he plans to whiz one in front of the bad guys face to scare them off.

I say that's hog wash I'd never do that. But I keep a vector next to last in the mag that way when it comes out I know there's only one left in the barrel. It's time to drop the mag and slam in another one.

In over 12 years of carrying I've unholstered it 3 times all in the line of duty. Never fired it yet Thank God.

Chuck