Shallow rifling question

[tonykarter]

I've located two Lyman Deerstalkers and am considering purchasing one or the other. One is .50 (.502" bore, .510 groove, 1/48"), the other in .54 (.542" bore, .550" groove, 1/48"). Lyman recommends conical or sabots due to the shallow grooving. Please educate me: are there good, multiple options for conicals and sabots in both of these calibers? Seems like I read somewhere in a thread or two on here that the .54 selection of either was slim. Thanks

 

[galamb]

You might get your fingers wrapped for talking about those plastic wrapped pistol bullets - conicals are ok to discuss, those "others" are not.

Said my piece now I will try and address your question.

Both of those, the 50 cal and 54 cal options have 8 thou rifling.

Lyman did this to try and create a "do all" barrel. That doesn't work "great" in any application but will be "ok" in many.

Most Roundball barrels will have rifling of at least 12 thou (some up to 16 thou) - that is "ideal" for shooting patched round balls.

A dedicated conical barrel might have rifling as shallow as 3 or 4 thou - that would be "ideal" for conicals.

When you market a barrel that has a target market of "everything" you get a barrel with rifling twice as deep as is ideal for conicals and only about 1/2 as deep as what would be ideal for roundballs.

If you will plan on shooting conicals and other plastic wrapped bullets, you will generally find "more variety" in 50 caliber - especially if you do not have a dedicated black powder shot nearby.

Cabela's, Bass Pro, Gander Mountain etc ALL have a pretty decent selection of 50 cal projectiles in just about every configuration you might ever want - 54 cal, not so much...

 

[Shifty]

I the rifles mentioned above have a .502 bore and a .510 groove then it has .004 rifling depth the other .542 bore and a .550 groove then it has .004 rifling depth.

 

[nkbj]

Tony,
Shallow rifling with 48" twist will shoot round ball accurately once the load has been developed.
If you want to shoot longer bullets the .54 has a faster twist relative to the bore diameter.
The .50 though will not kick as much when you load it hot and it has a little more strength to it.
So, here's my two cents worth.

I'd get the .50 and develop loads for it. If it turned out to not be satisfactory then I'd have the rifling freshed out to a .515 bore diameter with a little deeper grooves and a little faster twist than 48". I'd be shooting fifty cal whomperstompers from a twenty dollar Lee mold with excessive authority when a 300 pound feral hog was tearing up the back yard or a gator was on Aint Nellie's poodle.
I'd be shooting patched round ball for target and squirrels and bunnies and any other little critter that wasn't trying to chew my boot off.
For deer I'd be shooting round ball, whomperstompers or paper patched .50 caliber hollow bases... they're pretty easy to kill.
It's still just a matter of experimenting to find out what works.

When I was growing up we used to hunt the swampy reservoir area over east-northeast of Houston. You never knew what you'd be getting into out there.
So that's my two cents worth and like all free advice, worth every penny.

 

[galamb]

Sorry - bad math on my part

 

[tonykarter]

When I was growing up we used to hunt the swampy reservoir area over east-northeast of Houston.

You mean Sheldon Reservoir? Yeah, buddy! Between there and the river there is a bunch of palmetto bottoms with critters that will bite and not let go. Just right there in Houston too! (Actually, Houston grew out and surrounded it.) Not far from there as the crow flies there are a bunch of hogs between Uvalde Street in North Shore and the Beltway too. IN HOUSTON! Friends have shown me pics of massive deer feeding in the refinery tank storage farms between North Shore and Pasadena. Inside Houston! Crazy. Yes, thanks all. You have told me what I need to know. I truly appreciate the input. I'll go with the .50, even though I already have one. Thanks to the advise I have received on here I have the .50 shooting RB well. If this .50 won't shoot straight I'll get it drawn to a .54 and get it done right, faster twist specifically for conicals. For hogs. Thanks again.

 

[nkbj]

Yeehah you bet!
Sheldon was a great place to disappear all day!
Bought my first muzzleloader in a drug store there on Uvalde.
Say, do you know of that old GI housing neighborhood south of I-10 there at Northshore? My grandfather lived down there in the 50's-60's. His idea was that if a boy had to take care of a horse he had less time to get into trouble. So we were all on horse back and soon had rifle scabbards on the saddles. That whole area south of 10 was a boys paradise. Memories!

 

[BrownBear]

We have a 54 cal in the house, and it's my wife's favorite rifle with a lot of guns to choose from. Dunno about shooting those plastic thingies, but it's done incredibly well with all-lead conicals when I've shot it. She won't touch them due to recoil.

Having said that, it shoots round balls incredibly well. It's truly one of the more accurate round ball guns we own. The wife is recoil shy and hunts deer with only 60 grains of 3f Goex or Pyrodex P. She just whacks the snot out of deer out to 50 yards at least, as far as she's willing to shoot them. I've taken it up as high as 100 grains of 2f and to 90 grains of 3f with no apparent loss of accuracy. It also does as well with 30 grains of 3f for smacking bunny heads.

Truly a fine performing rifle. So good, I've considered picking up another. Gotta do that if I want to shoot one much. I get kinda tired of waiting for her to let me have a turn.

 

[Rifleman1776]

My original TC 'not-really-a-hawken-hawken' barrel has very shallow grooves. But it shot round balls very well providing I used a proper patch cloth. At the time I had a source for airplane cloth. Very-very thin but very-very tight woven and strong cotton. Excellent stuff. But, now, I understand, the FAA has forbidden it's use on antique aircraft restorations and the cloth is no longer available. So, do look for something that matches that description. Thin, tight woven and strong. It will work for you.

 

[tonykarter]

I am not familiar with much south of I10. I spent summers in the very young and growing neighborhood behind the High School on north Uvalde, had an uncle there, when most of it was just dirt roads and woods. Had a bicycle and explored much of it on that with other kids I met in the neighborhood.

 

[tonykarter]

Thanks for the patch info. Yes, I'll want to work up a good RB load for it too. I anticipate using it mostly with the heavier conicals, especially on evening hunts. I do not want to have to trail a deer in the fading light after a shot right at end of shooting time. Done that. Rather have it cleaned and having a drink by the fire with the guys before 9pm, not trailing it at 9pm. Federal use to make a 12ga 3" magnum slug in 1-3/16oz. Best "drop'em in their tracks" slug I ever shot. Recoil was devastating though. Want to try to duplicate that...less the recoil.

 

[Rifleman1776]

Yer choice, of course. But you underestimate the killing effectivness of a round ball, be it .45 cal. or a .54. Shot placement is always what matters.

 

[BrownBear]

Sounds as though you haven't shaken the same thing I was fed for decades about "pumpkin balls" or round balls from modern shotgun, and their ineffectiveness. It's been the standard spiel in everything from hunter safety classes to ammo ads for more than the 6 decades I've been hunting.

I was coming from much the same place as you are when I started out with muzzleloaders. I started with "slugs" for killing power, but quickly added round balls to my setups for cheap shooting and lots less recoil while practicing. Then I got around to whacking game with round balls. Never found a reason to use conicals for game after that.

I still have a bunch of conical molds in 50, 54 and 58 calibers. Basically everything that's readily available. I've also got all the commercial conicals available today, plus a bunch more that have disappeared from markets over the last 10 years. I still shoot lots of them for the hoot of it. I really like playing with them at long range- stuff well over 200 yards. The conicals are less affected by wind and they kick up a heck of a lot more dirt than round balls so it's easier to see impact points and adjust aim for the next shot.

I really love trying to hit things out that far, feeling pretty good if I can get onto them after 3 or 4 shots. But that's not hunting accuracy at those ranges. Just pure making smoke, noise and dirt clouds. I don't shoot well enough any more to hit game past 100 yards with open sights. And inside 100 yards, I don't have any reason to use anything but round balls.

Surely shoot the conicals and see what you can do with them. But also shoot round balls. I think you'll really surprise yourself with their abilities as you also get that recoil reduction you're looking for.

 

[Spikebuck]

Tony, having taken a good number of whitetails, several being big mature northern bucks over 200 pounds field dressed, I can definitely tell you that having shot some with heavy conicals and others with PRB, the end result is the same with no additional trailing due to PRB. 30 to 50 yards with solid double lung hits is about it. I have not had any deer hit well with a PRB go even 100 yards.

In Brian Beckum's last deer hunting DVD he and his friends are exclusively taking the "high shoulder" and base-of-the-neck shots with 50 caliber round balls and they all drop in their tracks. I personally prefer double-lungs, but if you are confident in those types of aiming points, the PRB does it's job there too.

Use what you want, but the PRB is totally deadly. Naturally, if you can't work up the right PRB load and your gun demands conicals, then that's the way to go. As said, accuracy is #1 assuming the projectile is basically adequate for the game being hunted.

 

[tonykarter]

Thanks guys.

 

[Tom Compton]

Agree on using PRBs vs conicals. Started in '76 with TC Hawken and Maxiball on deer and hog in NE Texas. Now it's PRB only in .40, .50 and .54.

 

[Kapow]

I've been looking at the same rifle for a travel gun. I'm thinking. 54 is ideal. Roundballs and Hornady great Plains bullet in 54 would be my first choice.

You'll never second guess a 54 but may do so with the 50.

 

[Walks with fire]

The pure lead round ball works for me. I tried others and found I like ball best. I only hunt whitetail deer though. Powder, patch, ball and done. One hundred yards with open sights is my limit on game. Don't get caught up in the energy numbers. Shoot vitals if you want; I shoot the shoulder now. No issues.

If you like conical bullets then use them. The shallow grooved barrels are designed for them and probably quite accurate. Their weight will carry more energy at the longer ranges and they will wind drift less. Give the ball chance though and make your own choice. That's what I did. The energy numbers don't apply to the effectiveness of a patched ball but in 10+ mile per hour winds they do drift a bit.