Sharps Carbine shooting rest

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I've got a Pedersoli 1859 Sharps (percussion) that I have been struggling to get to perform well since 2016.

I have come to believe that with an of the "Christmas tree" type of bullets, with 3 progressively larger driving bands, that the first driving band should fit in the bore. That is, if you stick the bullet in your muzzle pointy-end-first, the bullet should stop on the second driving band, with the first band going down the bore.

With my Pedersoli 1859, no commercially available Christmas tree bullet I have tried does this. Not even the Pedersoli mold. I have tried several variations of Christmas Tree bullet, including a Rapine copy (made by Lee as a custom mold someone sold on ebay), The Pedersoli version, and a "Bobtail" custom bullet. With all of them, the front driving band is too large to fit into the bore of my Pedersoli Sharps.

Why does this matter?

As I was slow to understand, the guys that shoot cartridge Sharps guns use bullets, either "naked" or paper-patched, that slide into the bore when the cartridge is chambered. Some of these bullets are only barely held by the case mouth by perhaps 1/8" of bullet or so. The remainder - a couple of inches or so - slides into the bore like a torpedo going into a torpedo tube in a submarine. These bullets do not engage the rifling on firing like a usual modern firearm. They are not a couple of thousands over groove diameter like with most modern firearms. They slide into the bore. What I believe this does is provide very close coaxiality between the bullet and the bore. Upon firing, these long bullets collapse along their length, which makes them swell up in diameter and thus take up the rifling.

I believe the Christmas Tree Sharps bullets were intended to do the same thing. I have been loaned several original Sharps bullets of different designs (some are Christmas tree, some are standard "ogive" bullets that have a curious small and around the ogive which, now not surprisingly, fits the bore). With all of them but one, the front driving band fits in the bore. I believe the one that does not would if I forced it, but I do not wan to damage the patina on the bullet.

When I was doing load workups for my Smith carbine, I tested the usual hard black plastic tubes and the translucent soft red rubber tubes made by Yore (Yore Supply - Rubber Smith Tubes). I really liked the Yore tubes for two reasons. First, being flexible, it was easy to get the bullets into the case mouths. Second, being translucent it was easy to see if there was powder in the tube and how close to full you were when the bullet was inserted.

Unfortunately, during load workups using both the hard black plastic and the Yore tubes, I discovered that I got better accuracy with the hard black tubes. I believe that this again is due to coaxiality. With the red rubber tubes, it was trivial to end up with bullets that were "cock-eyed" in the case mouth. You had to deliberately eyeball them to set them straight in the tube. And of course any kind of handling while plucking them out of your cartridge box and/or loading could knock the bullet crooked. But with the hard black plastic tubes, the bullets are very tightly and rigidly held by the case, enforcing coaxiality with the case. Since the cases tend to fit tightly in the Smith chamber, I believe this results in good bullet-to-bore coaxiality and this accounts for the increased precision on target with the black tubes vs. the red ones.

I now believe this can be applied to the Sharps also. It has been a maddening journey, because I have done many load workups over the years with this gun with different bullets, and often come home from the exercise excited because I finally found "the best load" for a bullet. Only to find later that it must have been a fluke because I was no longer getting consistent results.

I now think that part of the problem is lack of consistent coaxiality on loading with non-bore-riding bullets. The paper cartridge of combustible Sharps cartridges must be necessarily smaller than the chamber or you won't get many shots off before the cartridge won't fit and you will crumble it if you try and force it. What this means is that when you push a non-bore-riding bullet/cartridge into the Sharps chamber, the tail end of the cartridge will naturally settle to the floor of the chamber due to gravity. This may tend to cock the bullet skywards slightly, making it non-concentric with the bore. Depending on how dirty your chamber is, how much lube is on your bullet, and how firmly you push it into the chamber on loading, you could get different degrees of coaxial alignment each time you shoot a non-bore-riding bullet.

By having a bullet that at least partially bore-rides, I think this helps get the bullet concentric in the bore. It's never going to be as sure a thing as with the cartridge Sharps guns, where you have an inch or more of bullet surface riding in the bore, but I think it helps.

Larry Flees (who does fantastic work on Sharps guns, eliminating their gas leak problems at the breech), has designed a Christmas tree bullet that has a front driving band that will bore ride in the Pedersoli Sharps. While I have not had time to extensively test it, my initial load workup has provided some of the tightest sub-one-inch groups at 50 yards off a bench I have ever gotten. Targets here:



Both 42 grains of 3F Goex and 48 grains of same gave <1" groups at 50 yards off a bench.

The Flees bullet has a heel designed to accept the Charlie Hahn cardboard tubes. These have the advantage of shattering/disintegrating very completely upon firing but also are quite rigid, which makes for a very rigid and consistent complete cartridge. Many times on inserting and pushing home a home-made rolled-paper cartridge I can feel the tube buckle/crinkle when pushed home into the chamber. I'm sure this results in random and strange bore alignment for the bullet, especially if not a bore-rider. But the Hahn tubes are very rigid and so never do this. I think they also contribute to a more consistent chambering of the bullet and cartridge.

I haven't had the time to use this new bullet and cartridge in competition to confirm that it is the "magic bullet", but I think it is. I think having a bore-riding bullet is a way to get great accuracy out of a Sharps.

Steve

Steve-
One factor that I found makes a huge difference is how and what glue you use to attach the tubes. In head to head testing changing only the type of glue and application method, I saw group sizes change as much as 2in. Best glue I've found so far is a cellulose like Duco brand. It took finding a couple bullets in the backstop with tags of paper still attached to the heel for me to be completely convinced.
 
At least I stirred up some good conversations here!

As I said in so many words , I started with the factory sight & was shooting way high and a bit left. I removed the front blade and put in a taller one. This shot very low. After filing it down I’m about 3 inches low and wanted a more precise positioning of the gun to go after the last 3 inches by filing the front. In other words I’m afraid of filing off too much but I definitely want it hitting closer to where I aim but using the front rest only , I’m pretty sure with each reload I’m not getting the gun back to anywhere near an exactly repeatable position.
SO…. With all of this said , I wanted to get the gun in a stable position to try to have it sighted properly with the understanding that my lack of skill & experience would keep me from getting the best from the gun but I should not be able to blame that on the gun but rather me. So that’s when the lead sled came to mind.
Now you have got me to think about loading the bullet & the powder charge separately . That way I could force the bullet possibly a bit deeper into the barrel with a dowel , then put in the Hahn tube with the powder charge and see what happens !
I’m still hesitant to do any more front sight filing at this point. From all I’ve read here I am reminded that grouping is still a first priority. I’ve played with loads to some degree from 30-45 grains and settled on the 40 2F frankly because I’m lazy & the 40 gr spout is just easier to load compared to the others given the results. 30 , the other load I can mark with one spout, seemed too low powered although I have no real evidence other than sound to back that up.
Now you even got me thinking of type of glue for the bullet and I guess we can throw in my lube mix & method too !
Oh well , I have some boards I can cut up that won’t cost anything , so you all gave me a lot to think about before I spend any more money. I guess I can talk with guys at the range with their various rests/stands although I’m a rare percussion guy there. Ron
 
To @maillemaker.

I'm also shooting with a Pedersoli Sporting since twenty four years now.

Stop complicating your life, Pedersoli xmas tree bullets are good in Pedersoli Sharps. My group (the main one) is minder than 2x2" and the bullets are Pedersoli xmas tree. The diameter of the black target area is 4".
Look at the size of the cartridge in relation to the hole. The 70 grain load is my normal load for 100 yards with that Sharps, so those bullets aren't so bad and I use them at 100 yards...
If you get some troubles wit it, I think that come from something else other than the bullets...
 
" the guys that shoot cartridge Sharps guns use bullets, either "naked" or paper-patched, that slide into the bore when the cartridge is chambered. Some of these bullets are only barely held by the case mouth by perhaps 1/8" of bullet or so. The remainder - a couple of inches or so - slides into the bore like a torpedo going into a torpedo tube in a submarine. These bullets do not engage the rifling on firing like a usual modern firearm. "

This is not the case in my experience, the front portion and sometimes the first driving band fits the riflings (called a bore rider) but the bottom four bands on the example below would engage the riflings

1646678328670.png


I do not know anything about the 1859 sharps but have quite a bit of experience with BPCRS and if I wanted to squeeze the last bit of accuracy out of one I would call Steve Brooks of Steve Brooks Moulds (where I stole this picture) and talk to him. He will make you a mould to fit exactly to your gun and goals.
 
Both my Sharps have the Larry Flees mod and I also had Larry install a set of Rich Cross target sights. The military issue sights are really tough to shoot accurately.
I’ve found both Larry & Charlie to be very helpful on this journey.
At what distance do you generally shoot your Sharps Carbines? I’m just using the 50 yard target at this point.
BTW, thanks to everyone for your thoughts . I love reading everything about the Sharps rifles.
 
At what distance do you generally shoot your Sharps Carbines? I’m just using the 50 yard target at this point.
At 100 yards wit the same target than the 25 yards pistol (8" dia.called C50 en Absurdie) and on C200 target (15.75" or 40cm) at 200 yards. Never tried more : 200 yards is, mostly, the longest distance in our country...
 
" the guys that shoot cartridge Sharps guns use bullets, either "naked" or paper-patched, that slide into the bore when the cartridge is chambered. Some of these bullets are only barely held by the case mouth by perhaps 1/8" of bullet or so. The remainder - a couple of inches or so - slides into the bore like a torpedo going into a torpedo tube in a submarine. These bullets do not engage the rifling on firing like a usual modern firearm.
The principle is the same that for the Gibbs and Tryon when shooting to or over 100 yards.
It is the crushing of the bullet on itself when the powder exploding that make the engagement in the rifling. These bullets are used with relatively short twist rates (for muzzleloaders): my two Tryon have a twist rate of 1:21"...
Here an old bullet that stay on my desk :

Balle a compression.jpg
 
And that may be true, but it is not SOP when shooting BPCRS like the poster implied.

Bullets are usually cast of 16:1 or 20:1 and the bottom bands do engage the riflings.
 
Steve-
One factor that I found makes a huge difference is how and what glue you use to attach the tubes. In head to head testing changing only the type of glue and application method, I saw group sizes change as much as 2in. Best glue I've found so far is a cellulose like Duco brand. It took finding a couple bullets in the backstop with tags of paper still attached to the heel for me to be completely convinced.

There seem to be multiple kinds of Duco cement. Is this the one you are talking about?

https://www.amazon.com/Duco-Cement-Multi-Purpose-Household-Glue/dp/B0000A605H
This is not the case in my experience, the front portion and sometimes the first driving band fits the riflings (called a bore rider) but the bottom four bands on the example below would engage the riflings

I stand (somewhat) corrected. I am not a BPCR shooter and just follow them on the Sharps facebook page. I have seen the paper-patched bullets which, I believe, are uniform in diameter and slide completely into the bore.

Even with the bullet you show, however, a very large portion (nearly half, from what I can see) of the bullet fits into the bore. I believe it is this bore riding that enforces coaxiality with the bore and lends to precision.

Stop complicating your life, Pedersoli xmas tree bullets are good in Pedersoli Sharps. My group (the main one) is minder than 2x2" and the bullets are Pedersoli xmas tree. The diameter of the black target area is 4".
Look at the size of the cartridge in relation to the hole. The 70 grain load is my normal load for 100 yards with that Sharps, so those bullets aren't so bad and I use them at 100 yards...
If you get some troubles wit it, I think that come from something else other than the bullets...

I just went back and checked my load workup targets (on another computer) and I actually did get some very tight groups arouind 50-60 grains 3F Goex. Maybe I will have to go back and revisit. I just feel like it was never consistent. I was trying 1:20 tin/lead alloy at the time.

Steve
 
There seem to be multiple kinds of Duco cement. Is this the one you are talking about?

https://www.amazon.com/Duco-Cement-Multi-Purpose-Household-Glue/dp/B0000A605H


I stand (somewhat) corrected. I am not a BPCR shooter and just follow them on the Sharps facebook page. I have seen the paper-patched bullets which, I believe, are uniform in diameter and slide completely into the bore.

Even with the bullet you show, however, a very large portion (nearly half, from what I can see) of the bullet fits into the bore. I believe it is this bore riding that enforces coaxiality with the bore and lends to precision.



I just went back and checked my load workup targets (on another computer) and I actually did get some very tight groups arouind 50-60 grains 3F Goex. Maybe I will have to go back and revisit. I just feel like it was never consistent. I was trying 1:20 tin/lead alloy at the time.

Steve

Steve- yes, that's what I found worked best. Some types of white glue and cheap nail polish seem to bond far too tightly for our purpose. Put a light film on the heel, attach tube and let dry. When cured, they should hold fairly well, but break loose with a gentle twist. Obviously not the solution for military use, but for skirmishing it works fine.

Bullets- I stick with pure lead. My center band isn't quite a bore rider and the base is the driving band.

Powder- Swiss or Old E.
 
I’ve found both Larry & Charlie to be very helpful on this journey.
At what distance do you generally shoot your Sharps Carbines? I’m just using the 50 yard target at this point.
BTW, thanks to everyone for your thoughts . I love reading everything about the Sharps rifles.

I focus on our competition distances- 50&100yds. When I'm practicing at my home range, I'll sometimes take more than a few pot shots at the 200 steel and yeah, it's pretty cool to whack steel offhand at 200 with an iron sighted 1863 Sharps. The look on Tacty Kewl Timmy's face is priceless.
 
I never saw a muzzle loading Sharps . Must be a fairly rare .
Yes, but you can do it if you know how and it works well too...
The Old Sharps is the only rifle I know of that you can load through the breech with paper or linen cartridges, without cartridges and also through the muzzle with a packaged charge (we call it "gargousse" here, but I can't say that in your language).
 
So for the percussion Sharps shooters , what lube and how do you apply it to your bullets.
I’ve been using a mix of beeswax and olive oil with some parrafin liquified then applied to the grooves with a little hobby paint brush.
Also does anyone have anything to say about their use of loose powder loads in a Sharps vs paper cartridges ?
 
I focus on our competition distances- 50&100yds. When I'm practicing at my home range, I'll sometimes take more than a few pot shots at the 200 steel and yeah, it's pretty cool to whack steel offhand at 200 with an iron sighted 1863 Sharps. The look on Tacty Kewl Timmy's face is priceless.
I love watching the YouTube videos of shooting Sharps long range at steel. The wait between the shot and the hit on the steel is amazing.
 
So for the percussion Sharps shooters , what lube and how do you apply it to your bullets.
I’ve been using a mix of beeswax and olive oil with some parrafin liquified then applied to the grooves with a little hobby paint brush.
Also does anyone have anything to say about their use of loose powder loads in a Sharps vs paper cartridges ?
I use beeswsx/lard/EVO applied with an eye shadow brush. It goes on pretty quickly and I wear nitrile gloves while doing it to smooth the lube out equally
 
I use beeswsx/lard/EVO applied with an eye shadow brush. It goes on pretty quickly and I wear nitrile gloves while doing it to smooth the lube out equally
That’s sounds like it might be pretty thin , does it stay in the grooves or pile up some between them as mine does? I’d like it to stay neatly in the grooves but it seems to cool/harden quickly once it gets on the lead.
 
For me a mixture of beeswax, tallow, lanolin and pure beef foot oil (like Neats foot oil). I grease my balls just before using them...... and as I am not very careful I do it with my fingers: a well lubricated bullet softened by a small massage with the fingers always gives better results.......... well this is what I believe, so...
 
... a packaged charge (we call it "gargousse" here, but I can't say that in your language).
The translation appears to be (surprise!) "cartridge" and at least quasi-synonymous with "cartouche", although it appears that "gargousse" is more specifically applied to cannon where in English it would mean something like "load of gunpowder in an envelope (or bag)" -- or something like that. Such as "packaged charged". 😂 😂
 
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