Shooting bag- in progress, question about HC

[asalufa]

This is a shooting bag I'm making for a friend- what's left mainly is to finish the flap, and I'm waiting on specs from my friend before I finish it. I know enough about historical shooting bags to know that some of it is HC, some of it isn't.

As I understand it, the general shape of this bag is correct. The use of welts is correct. The presence of two main pockets is correct. The way the two pockets were done is not, nor is the prevelence of internal pockets, but it's what my friend wanted. The thickness of leather is ok, using pre-dyed hide is ok, and the fact that it's oiled is... I think... ok.

I have two questions for all you more knowledgeable folks!

1- have I missed anything in my understanding of what's HC or not? (I know it's regional and varies by time period, but I'm going more for broad trends here...)

2- The leather braid I used to trim the edges... this is something I've been doing for years, started well before I found muzzleloading and buckskinning. So, I would love to be able to justify using braid as edge trim, decoration, for straps, belts, etc. My documentation resources are kinda limited right now, but I haven't seen anything to support this. Have any of you seen any documentation for this?

 

[rafterob]

If it is made out of materials that were in use during the broad timeline you suggest, I would think that is as HC as you can ask for. I imagine there were as many different styles or interpretations then as now.

 

[ryzman]

I like it... in fact i really like... i could care less if it was hc or not... great job!!!

 

[MSW]

can't speak to the HC/PC issue, but i really like what you've done. could you do a more detailed (i.e. mini- lesson) about how you do the edge treatment - i'd like to try it on my next bag.

 

[omarick1948]

I like your pouch and to me, it is more of a modern style muzzle loading pouch, as the serpentine braided edges are more of a Old West saddle makers braid. I don't think that you would of seen it on original pouches, but I have seen common whip edging on a few of the historic leather items.

That said, there are always examples that pop-up, and maybe someone knows them. I'm not just rattling-off an opinion, as I used to do a lot of leather work years ago and even taught some leather classes for Tandy Leather, back in the seventies! .... Don't be concerned about the HC/PC Police! If you and your friend like it! That's what counts!

Nice workmanship,
Rick

 

[Capt. Jas.]

I agree with what Rick said.

If you are concerned in and of yourself for historicity of your craft, I would seek to study the techniques of leather craftsmen for your specific time period and area. Saddlers, harness makers and in the case of Euro stuff, even purse makers. I believe it a mistake to at first seek out to place our own desires and techniques into a historical setting. I think it more appropriate to proceed from the other end of that thinking and seek out what were the techniques of the period by looking at and examining original pieces with provenance, documents, paintings, remnants, etc.

That said, I really like the work and would encourage you to continue in your style and just call it CONTEMPORARY work that is historically "inspired". It looks great!

I can envision that pouch WITHOUT a top flap and having belt loops. That would make a FINE shotgun shell pouch for sporting clays and would contain your beautiful technique that makes it yours.
I believe in that you will find quite a market. :thumbsup:

 

[asalufa]

I totally agree about using research to guide designs if my desire is to be totally historically correct. I did actually do at least some research before starting this bag, which is why I think I've got a good grasp of which aspects of the design are correct or not. I certainly will do what I want and like on my regular use bag, but it would be a nice bonus if I could justify it historically as well.

I know leather braid (at least using rawhide) can be documented at some level all the way back to the viking era, and rawhide braiding was widespread in Spain pre 1500, and spread into parts of South America after Cortez. In the US, I can find documentation of rawhide braiding in California by the late 1800's, but I think it was largely associated with the large cattle drives that occurred during that time. With all the fringing, it's clear that leather was cut to the thinness that would be needed for leather lace for braid, so it just seems baffling that we find no evidence of it!

Thanks for the kind comments, everyone! I'll certainly keep using leather braid for edging and more in my own bags, and possibly in others if folks are interested. I'm actually starting a shooting bag for myself now- a double bag with a gusset on the front pocket. This one will certainly have some braid- for both functional and decorative purposes! If I have to come up with an alternative bag to use when I go to extra-authentic events, I'll just have to do that. I'm just getting started, really, so I'm not too worried about that yet. :grin:

 

[asalufa]

Well, I can try, but I would actually strongly recommend you check out the book "Leather Braiding" by Bruce Grant, or it's big brother, the "Encyclopedia of Rawhide and Leather Braiding", also by Bruce Grant. These are the books I learned from, and they have great step by step directions. The thing is, there's lots of details besides figuring out how to do the braids themselves, like the type of lace, widths, tools to cut the holes, etc.

The two edge braids I used on this bag (using the terms from Grant's books) were the round braid edge-lacing (using a single thong) and the Spanish edge lacing of two loops. The round braid is used on the flap of the front pocket and on the interior divider. The Spanish edge lacing is used between the brass loops with a leather strip around the top edge of the bag.

You can buy spools of lace from Tandy and other vendors in a variety of lengths, species, colors, and finishes. I'm actually very fond of Tandy's kangaroo lace for many purposes, but didn't think it would look right for this project. For this project, I cut all of the laces from a very soft deerskin using a rotary cutter (which was WAY easier than my early attempts to use a knife or scissors!). The thongs are roughly 1/8" across. They don't have to be perfectly even, but the closer the better. Oh, and I've found that deerskin is too soft for may of the commercial lace cutters you can buy. You want to cut lace that is a similar thickness along the whole length- I ended up working around some places on the hide that were thinner, which tended to be an issue where the hide narrows near the shoulder and hip of the deer. In theory, you can glue or sew shorter pieces of lace together to make one long thong, but it's unwieldy when you're actually stitching, and I find it's just as easy to add the next length by sticking the new end under the last few stitches of the old thong.

Once I had a bunch of lace cut and a pattern decided, I used a 4-prong lacing chisel (from Tandy) to cut the slots for lace- this keeps the holes evenly spaced and parallel to the edge. I also use a 2-prong lacing needle with the prongs going through the skin side of the lace for a better hold (the round lace needles just don't hold well enough for this). It's also handy but not critical to have a "fid", which is basically a flat, blunt awl for opening spaces between lace, and a small pair of needlenose pliers for pulling the needle through the leather.

I could try to walk you through how to do the braids themselves, but here's a better way... If you go to Tandy's main website and go to the "LeatherCraft Library", most the way down on the left hand side is a link for the "Leather Craft ABC's". Page 3 shows you a great step by step showing how to do the Spanish Edge lacing of two loops. Unless you're trying to go around in a circle, you really only need steps 1-6 or so, and you can finish by tucking the end of the lace under the finished stitches.

You're going to need one of the books or an online guide to do the round braid. I simply can't describe it well enough in words.

 

[necchi]

I agree with the many here it's a nice looking bag and the heck with the PC police,, you've got enough going on there to make it quite functional and acceptable at any Rendezvous I attend.

But Capt Jas makes a good point, if you want "hc/pc", building it to a style that is documented is better than making it,, then looking for documentation,,
When it comes to the PC police, having documentation of something being used for hundreds of years in a different country means nothing to these guys if they can't find it here state side.
It really does matter if you/they want actual recreation of an item

 

[Capt. Jas.]

PC police???? Who are these guys????
In reality it is the individual or the people coordinating an event.
:grin:

 

[necchi]

Your right of course,
The most PC/HC carrying on I've ever seen has been on online forums.
I try of course, as I attend events to represent fur trade era in a broad sense, but having a short starter in my shooting kit isn't going to get me booted from the camps I go to.

I was going to post to this a few days ago, but thought better of it, I don't mean to be rude.

It's just the way Mophair is going about his search backwords, making something then trying to document it,, it's defenately the hard way. While the braided trim is nice, I haven't seen any at fur trade events, Cowboy stuff yes, but not at early Northwest Fur Trade in the area I'm from.

 

[asalufa]

I understand your comments and concerns, but to re-visit what I said earlier, personally, I'm not actually going about it backwards. I know, more or less, what is historically correct. I can make things that way if I want to, and sometimes, I will. I knew from the start that at least some parts of this bag, likely including the braid, would not stand up to historical scrutiny.

The original post was partly to show off, partly to find out if my understandings are correct, partly to find out if I had missed any documentation of braid that more knowledgeable folks might have had. It would be a nice bonus to find out that something I like to do is historically correct, but it was more wistful thinking than anything else.

 

[phoenix511]

Nice pouch, be happy with it!

If you want to make a replica or copy of an original, that's another matter.

Several books, like Grant's "The Kentucky Rifle Hunting Pouch," have B&W images, some with dimensions and a circa notation, but no citation as to where the dates come from, plus the pouches come from Kentucky and surrounding area.

TC Albert's "Recreating the 18th century Hunting Pouch" has excellent color renditions as well as
dimensions and dates, but no citation supporting the dates.

Webb's "Sketches of Hunting Pouches ..." has wonderfull B&W sketches plus pouch dimensions, but only for items from Southern Appalachia and surrounding area.

So make a copy of any of these and enjoy. There are few surviving originals, colors have long been lost, straps may be vintage repairs, buttons, loops, etc may have been added. Its pretty hard to document a pouch style, although you can get pretty close.

Grant, TC Albert, and Webb are well respected in the field, and their works should be accepted. Some rondy HC police are critical of nearly everything, so if I had a pouch period to that rondy similar to one in Albert's book and they didn't like it ... well do what you have to do! Go home and never come back.