Short Barrel Efficiency Q

[The Baron]

Hi folks. I recently saw a 12ga. flintlock for sale, with only a 24" barrel. This idea is very attractive to me, as a handy hunting weapon. My question is, would a barrel that short be of any use at all in a blackpowder musket? I wonder if the majority of the charge would burn after it left that short barrel, leaving me with low velocity shot charges and a terribly inefficient weapon? How about using PB in a 24" barrel musket? From what little I know so far, FFg powder is right for a 12ga musket. Would it work well in a short gun with a finer powder (FFFg)? Last Q - were barrels that short ever common in the correct historical period for flintlock smoothbores? Thanks.

 

[musketman]

What you could do is run a faster burning powder in it, say FFFg instead of FFg...

This will ensure you get maximum push from your charge...

Short barrels are favored by hunters that hunt in thick cover, there's nothing more nerve racking than swinging a 40+ inch barrel on a deer and getting it hung up in the thickets and saplings...

There is also a weight issue, shorter barreled guns are lighter and easier to manage, however, (there's always a however, isn't there) less weight means more felt recoil for a like charge...

A heavily loaded 42 inch barrel will seem to kick less than a 24 inch barrel with the same charge, it's a trade off...

 

baron:
I don't know if barels for fouling pieces of the flintlock era were that short as a rule. I rather doubt it, however the blunderbus was always quite short.
Something to keep in mind about black powder and barrel length. The heavier the shot or ball/bullet, the more likely the powder charge is to burn completely independant of barrel length.(within reason of course)
There is a great deal of argument concerning 150 grain charge equivelent of Pyro-poop pellets and light pistol bullets used in the modern abomination called the in-line.
However the in-line with 300 plus grain bullets will more completely burn the 150 grain charge.
you will loose nothing noticable with the shorty flinter. You will, however get a lot of noise.

 

[musketman]

baron:
We could take Maxieball's new .62 caliber G.M. drop in barrel and run some test... (we'll even let ol' Maxie pull the trigger too)

With 150 grains of FFg and a .600 patched round ball, take the shot...

Now we just hack-saw and inch off the muzzle, reload and shoot, repeating this process until there's about 6 inches or so of barrel left...

Then we measure the extent of the broken bones in his shoulder and calculate the felt recoil...

Simple :winking: :haha: :haha:

 

[Rocky Johnson]

MM Randy You say that 3f will burn faster than 2f?? Why.? Baron I think you should get the musket and let us all know how it works. I have a 20 ga.flintlock trade gun or canoe gun? with a 33 inch barrel that shoots shot ok. Rocky /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif

 

[musketman]

MM Randy You say that 3f will burn faster than 2f?? Why.?

Finer powder grain burns faster than courser grains...

(and in some cases, cleaner too, the more of the powder that burns, the less that is left behind as fouling)

FFFFg (priming powder) burns faster still, while Fg has a slower burning rate...

 

Musketman:
As usual you have come up with a completely scientific approach to settle this gentlemans query.
150 grains of powder behind a tightly patched round ball would very likely shorten the barrel to 6" on the first shot.
Measuring the extent of broken bones is simply brilliant and I think........HEY I ain't sure, but I think I've been HAD again!
lets get Zonie to do it, but ONLY if we can video the test in progress. :haha: :haha:

 

[Stumpkiller]

The Dutch inspired flintlock Hudson fowlers of this region had 48" to as long as 60" barrels. I don't know if the intent was that even the lousey colonial powders or old stores of imported, 'months at sea and stored on a dirt floor under thatched roof' brands available would all burn or as a attempt to form tighter shot spreads.

Blunderpotz, my T/C New Englander 12 ga smoothie, has a 26" barrel and it is a dandy shotgun. (and not a bad round ball mortor). You'll burn the whole 80 gr in a flash (heh heh) because a shotgun powder charge shape is a cylinder about as wide as it is long, unlike a rifle where the powder is a long, relatively narrow cylinder. Black powder burns faster than any of the modern smokeless powders, but it is much bulkier. The rifle charge, because of it's shape, ends up burning more like a very, very fast fuse and the explosion at the rear can eject the powder ahead of it fast enough that it runs out of barrel before it is all consumed.

 

I don't think you would be happy with a 12 bore or .75 cal. with a 24" barrel for shot. A 30" will actually pattern bettrdue to lower pressure at the muzzle for any given powder charge. This is why most BP shotguns pattern better than modern shotguns of the same choke designtion. The BP guns develope lower pressure, not only at the breech, but at the muzzle as well. This disrupts the wads less, and is less prone to blowing them through the shot upon exit. That is normally why a true cylinder modern gun shoots 'blown' patterns with large holes. A BP cylinder gun usually shoots nicely even patterns.
: A 24" 12 bore, or .75 smoothbore Flinter for Round Ball hunting in the bush, would be a very handy gun & was the preferred length for dangerous game in Africa and India.
: 2F will work just fine in that barrel length.
Daryl

 

[Deadeye]

that 24" barrel will burn any resonable charge and you wont find any difference in patterns or velocities. I've done numerous tests of different barrel lengths and when you get under about 16-18" you'll lose some velocity but patterns will still be good. I have a 20 ga. with a 10" barrel that patterns well and the noise is no more than shooting any pistol of that length. The longer barrels with increased sight radius does give you an advantage in accuracy when shooting
crossing shots, that's why duck guns and trap guns have long barrels, not for velocity or burning the charge.

 

[riarcher]

That wouldbe my first "consideration" also, sight radius. The longer the barrel, the more acute the angle.
Maybe off the wall here but I'm thinking the diff. between a 26" and a 42" would be almost like a scope to peep sights?
Think 3Fg would burn fine, and would think "kick like a mule" would come into play (and that would help accuacy?).
Just my thoughtful $0.02

 

There you go - so much for muzzle pressure - but - it does work out in percentages at 40 yards. The lower the muzzle pressure, the more even the patterns. This can be achieved by lower powder charges or by longer tubes. With chokes, there is little or no difference.
: I beg to differ through my own testing. One had 24" tubes, a bucked off Navy arms 12 bore and the other 30" cylinder tubes, a CVA, I believe. Both were cylinder and the longer tubes had more even patterns with less clay bird sized holes. both were loaded with identical charges having 1/4" of overpowder wads, 2, 1/2" felt wads, 1 1/8ounce 1/16" BB wad and 3 drams of powder.
: Actually, in a 30" tube with the above loading, the muzzles can be so thin on cylinder bores, as to be carvable with a pocket knife and not blow or enlarge the muzzles from pressure. W.W. Greener himself did this test-of-proof for doubters. He also stated that the only advantage of choked barrels of longer length was in pointability and ease of follow through. Shorter barrels tend to promote stopping the swing, rather than following through but are much better for snap shooting, not a favourable method of shooting a flintlock due to lock time. It does work with percussion guns & is the method I use for upland game & ducks over deeks.
Daryl

 

[Deadeye]

What I was trying to say is that if you took a large number of 24" barrels and found the best pattern for each of them and came up with an average and then did the same with 30" barrels there would be little if any difference. No more than you would find in 2 batches of 30" barrels. If you use one 24' and one 30 " either one may have the best pattern.

 

MY 20 GA cylinder bore smoothie 26" patterens well out to 30 yds.It has a rear sight and I primarlly use it as a turkey gun, and for deer hunting.

 

The trouble with real patterning is it takes an incredible amount of time - counting pellets, drawing a 30' circle around the pattern centre, then a 20" inner circle, then marking and counting holes. This has to be done for each pattern shot and it takes at least 10 patterns to make an educated guess on pattern averages.
: VERY few people indeed have ever done this. Usually it's a shot fired at the ground or water and BOY! - that looks good or at most, a shot or two at a small or large piece of paper & one or two shots is taken as average. Anyone who has actually patterned a shotgun for load development knows it takes many more than 1 or 2 shots & that counting holes, finding, marking & measuraing 'holes' in the pattern are necessary for a good concrete job to be done. Change ANY part of the load and you start all over again, whether it's a primer in ctgs., powder, wads, shot size, shot make due to different alloy compositon, etc, etc.
: Yeah- it's a lot of work but I've found clear, 1/10" thick lexan to be the best for cutting out the 30" 'form' with a 20" killing circle inside. Having a clear pattern makes it easier for centering the pattern. Some people use 10"& 25" with pie cuts 5" wide on the outside for more accurate pattern percentage in coverage - That gives pattern percentage for concentrated areas and is a more accurate method than only using a 20" centre. It all depends on what is important to the shooter. Two patterns can look alike, yet differ in percentages & shot concentrations enough to make 10 yards(30') which actually is a substancial difference in killing range. This becomes most important for Turkey(head shots) and Geese- overall coverage & evenness. Just adding shot, or powder cha change more than mere pellet count - it can blow or add to the desired pattern concentration areas needed. These changes can either make negative or positive results and without proper patterning, well, you just never know for certain. With proper lead, the difference between killing and crippling or outright missing is sometimes corrected with minor development. Load development can change a crippler into the best killing gun you've ever fired.
: "The Gun and it's Development 9th Edition" by W.W. Greener, is an excellent volume for a teaching tool, especially when using old-style wads. There's more to it dropping a charge of powder & shoving a wad down the tube, dumping in a 1/2 handful of shot and a thin card on top and letting fly.
; Shotgun load development is every bit as important for patterns as developing loads for a rifle with patch and ball changes. The trouble is it's more time consuming and there are more things to change & that makes the job harder.
Daryl

 

[riarcher]

being much more primative, I use a section of plastic drop cloth (30X30) and when I print "properly" I'll shoot a can (not aluminum) to validate penetration for birds. Seems to work so far and saves a lot of grief and agrivation.

 

[roundball]

Similar thing here...used 2'X 3' sheets of flip chart paper...folded the sheets in half twice to get quadrant crease lines in them...then like you, made sure the load would penetrate through a 4" heavy metal tuna fish can.

In my .62cal smoothbore, the best load was:
80grns FFg
3 Oxyoke wonderwads
Paper shot cup
1+5/8oz #6's
OS card
(put 29 pellets through a 4" tuna can at 30yd)

 

Daryl is quite right about the tedious work involved in really learning what laods pattern best even in a modern shotgun.
Years ago I got serious about trap shooting and had a supply of plain rolled news paper that I stapled to a 4X8 sheet of plywood. I shot literally hundreds of rounds of trap loads from my Rem. TB trap gun until I hit upon a load that gave 95% patterns consistanly at 40 yards.
The same held true to a lesser degree in developing a deer/buckshot combination for a planed Virginia Buckshot only hunt that never did happen.
I learned that ordinary 00 buck standard nine pellet load was worthless at beyond 20 yards.
During my police career I shot hundreds of rounds of buckshot from the 870 riot gun to determine what the most effective anti-personel load was. The standard 9 pellet 00 buck is horrible past 15 yards.
What did I settle on for a shotgun load for drug raids and felony arrests???? Federal #4 buck for distances under 20 yards. Less likely to penetrate walls, and very likely to "neutralize" and "stop the agressive action" of a nasty person.
I found that Federal Premium hard 00 copper plated buffered 3" mag 15 pellet loads would keep all 15 pellets in a 10" circle at 40 yards with a modified choke.
Full choke and buckshot was lousy.
It takes considerable effort to develope a good black powder load, a lot of shooting at a large paper target is required.
Take an average of your BEST five shots and you will have a rough idea of how the thing will pattern.
Shooting at a tin can at a given yardage and counting the pellet strikes is at best a terrible way to detemine what the shotgun will do.
You absolutely must shoot at a paper or cardboard at least 40" square to clearly see what the pattern looks like.
Now shooting a real "tin" can at a given yardage to determine the pellets ability to penetrate isn't a bad idea at all.
By the way, I keep an 870 riot gun handy at home for serious social intercourse and it's loaded with 3" magnum Federal 00 buck copper plated buffered loads.
Expensive, but how many rounds do you really need to shoot????
Nasty stuff!