-
Friends, our 2nd Amendment rights are always under attack and the NRA has been a constant for decades in helping fight that fight.
We have partnered with the NRA to offer you a discount on membership and Muzzleloading Forum gets a small percentage too of each membership, so you are supporting both the NRA and us.
Use this link to sign up please; https://membership.nra.org/recruiters/join/XR045103
Shotgun questions
- Thread starter vanstg
- Start date
Help Support Muzzleloading Forum:
vanstg: 1 oz is on the bottom end of the black powder load scale for a 12 gauge, the shot ranges from 1 ounce to 1 1/2 ounce loads...
Also the powder drams (I will give grains as well) range from 2 3/4 drams (75 grains) all the way up to 3 3/4 drams (102 grains) of FFg black powder
The wads look like this...
Over powder card /over shot cards:
1/2 inch fiber wad:
A good starting load is as follows, in order of loading...
(Light field load)
2 3/4 drams (75 grains) FFg
One heavy (.125 inch thick) over powder card
One 1/2 inch fiber wad (lubed)
1 onces of chilled shot (any shot size will work)
One thin overshot card (to hold it all in place)
This load gives 1103 fps and 1181 FT/lbs. muzzle energy...
(Field load)
3 1/4 drams (89 grains) FFg
One heavy (.125 inch thick) over powder card
One 1/2 inch fiber wad (lubed)
1 1/8 onces of chilled shot
One thin overshot card
This load gives 1220 fps and 1624 FT/lbs. muzzle energy...
(Heavy field load)
3 1/2 drams (96 grains) FFg
One heavy (.125 inch thick) over powder card
One 1/2 inch fiber wad (lubed)
1 1/4 onces of chilled shot
One thin overshot card
This load gives 1231 fps and 1838 FT/lbs. muzzle energy...
(Extra-Heavy field load)
3 3/4 drams (102 grains) FFg
One heavy (.125 inch thick) over powder card
One 1/2 inch fiber wad (lubed)
1 1/2 onces of chilled shot
One thin overshot card
This load gives 1130 fps and 1857 FT/lbs. muzzle energy...
Guest
There you go. Now with what musketman just gave you, you would then go out and pattern you shotgun, work up a load much as you probably did with your rifle.
Every smooth bore is different, they can have a choke or not, some will pattern good without a shot wad some will not. Some need a shot cup some don
Every smooth bore is different, they can have a choke or not, some will pattern good without a shot wad some will not. Some need a shot cup some don
Guest
Modern Loads, I believe, differ from Original BP loads for the Muzzleloading Shotgun.
; Years ago, a 1 1/8 ounce load was considered to be a heavy 12 bore load, along with 3 1/4 drams of powder. I expect many still used the 1 1/4 ounce load for heavy game, like geese, but with the price of loose shot and powder, heavy loading wasn't as prevelent then, as it is today.
: Heavier loads in military muskets for night guard duty did happen, like 15, 000 buck being about the heaviest I seen in print for civilian guard and the normal buck and ball for militry dute - and both of these, for the 14 gauge(.69 cal.)musket. The military's buck-shot ctg. normally contained 9 balls for the .69's.(as printed in "Military Firearms of the American West 1803-1865)
; Years ago, a 1 1/8 ounce load was considered to be a heavy 12 bore load, along with 3 1/4 drams of powder. I expect many still used the 1 1/4 ounce load for heavy game, like geese, but with the price of loose shot and powder, heavy loading wasn't as prevelent then, as it is today.
: Heavier loads in military muskets for night guard duty did happen, like 15, 000 buck being about the heaviest I seen in print for civilian guard and the normal buck and ball for militry dute - and both of these, for the 14 gauge(.69 cal.)musket. The military's buck-shot ctg. normally contained 9 balls for the .69's.(as printed in "Military Firearms of the American West 1803-1865)
Guest
what i have from an old black powder digests lists
for the 12 gauge load as follows
gauge...drams powder.......shot charge (oz.)
12........4 1/8............1 3/8 heavy
12........3 3/4............1 1/4 medium
12........3 1/4............1 1/8 light
for ball load
12-13......3 1/4............ 547 grain RB
it says under the disclamer
compiled in feb 1896 by the gunmakers company and the
Guardians of the Birmingham proof house under the athority if the Gun proof act of 1868 .
all charges were based on FFg powder for those gauges of 12 or smaller and on Fg powder for larger bores
for the 12 gauge load as follows
gauge...drams powder.......shot charge (oz.)
12........4 1/8............1 3/8 heavy
12........3 3/4............1 1/4 medium
12........3 1/4............1 1/8 light
for ball load
12-13......3 1/4............ 547 grain RB
it says under the disclamer
compiled in feb 1896 by the gunmakers company and the
Guardians of the Birmingham proof house under the athority if the Gun proof act of 1868 .
all charges were based on FFg powder for those gauges of 12 or smaller and on Fg powder for larger bores
Guest
Great info from others, just wanted to let you know I have a 10 ga pedersoli double for sale. If interested email [email protected] or call 570.233.2240
Guest
In 1896, these are definitley ctg. loads, not muzzleloader loads. We can use more shot and/or powder due to not having the restrictions of a paper case, however they are very good guidlines.
: 1 1/4 ounce USED to be considered a 10 bore load, BTW for muzzleloaders. Today's shooter, for some reson, feels it necessary to use more of everything to do the same job.
: I, for one, do wish we could still get the Ely ctgs. for shotguns. It would apprear that unslit paper cgs. might give close to the same results. They need to be shot at a patrern board or paper target at extended ranges of 50 to 10yds. to see if the shot is finally released or not, as in the Ely ctg. The Ely ctgs. were capable of reliably shooting ducks at 90 and 100yds. from a mere 14 bore shotgun, using 2 1/2 drams of powder. Their performance was something desperately but woefully unattained, by the choke-gun developers in the ctg. gun era.
: 1 1/4 ounce USED to be considered a 10 bore load, BTW for muzzleloaders. Today's shooter, for some reson, feels it necessary to use more of everything to do the same job.
: I, for one, do wish we could still get the Ely ctgs. for shotguns. It would apprear that unslit paper cgs. might give close to the same results. They need to be shot at a patrern board or paper target at extended ranges of 50 to 10yds. to see if the shot is finally released or not, as in the Ely ctg. The Ely ctgs. were capable of reliably shooting ducks at 90 and 100yds. from a mere 14 bore shotgun, using 2 1/2 drams of powder. Their performance was something desperately but woefully unattained, by the choke-gun developers in the ctg. gun era.
Guest
Well it lists them as muzzle loading loads not cartridge loads, however you could be correct.
Also I use the same load chart for loads in my Damascus barreled breach loaders one of which dates 1890.
If though what we are looking for is an authentic load then round shot is not to be used. A traditional load of what I understand you to speak of would have been of square or scraped lead or oblong shot called Rupert shot.
Here is some good reading
http://members.aye.net/~bspen/shotgun.html
http://thunder-ridge-muzzleloading.com/shotguns.htm
http://150.theage.com.au/view_bestofarticle.asp?straction=update&inttype=1&intid=705
http://waynesword.palomar.edu/pljune98.htm
http://www.southalabama.edu/archaeology/dr-weaponry.htm
Also I use the same load chart for loads in my Damascus barreled breach loaders one of which dates 1890.
If though what we are looking for is an authentic load then round shot is not to be used. A traditional load of what I understand you to speak of would have been of square or scraped lead or oblong shot called Rupert shot.
Here is some good reading
http://members.aye.net/~bspen/shotgun.html
http://thunder-ridge-muzzleloading.com/shotguns.htm
http://150.theage.com.au/view_bestofarticle.asp?straction=update&inttype=1&intid=705
http://waynesword.palomar.edu/pljune98.htm
http://www.southalabama.edu/archaeology/dr-weaponry.htm
I shoot allot of ml'ing shotgun and I was out shooting clay today with a 20ga. SxS flint. In my 12ga. perc. SxS I use allot of 1oz. loads. Works good on doves and clays. For rabbits I bump it up to 1 1/4oz and go to 5's or 6's instead of the 7 1/2's I use for doves and clays. I tried some of them 3 1/2 dr. and up loads. It took the fun out of it for me. Also hate doing that to a 150yr. old gun.
Guest
I think available
Doesn
Doesn
No doubt that new technology is sometimes costly and slow to spread, I do think that the better type of shot caught on pretty quickly but as always the old ways prevailed in some areas. I quess I still missed the time period that this topic is focused on, if a post rev war American fowler were the gun, I suspect that one capable of having such a gun would have the new shot as well, a person on the frontier with a smoothbore useing buck and ball and shot might more likely fashion his own crude shot by the cut and roll method or making his own rupert type.
I read that you could use gravel or grain size smooth rocks if need be, anything is better than nothing in a pinch...
If I was back then and out of shot and ball and hungry, you better believe I'd be searching for shot size rocks...
I would much rather scratch the bore than die of starvation...
Guest
Sorry - I didn't realize they were listed as ML loads. I was going by the date only and 1 3/8 ouces sounded pretty heavy for ctg.
: Late in the 1800's when the 2 3/4" case was born, the shot charge was allowed to go up to 1 1/4 ounces due to the length of case, but it was felt to be excessive for the 12 bore, being a normal 2 7/8" 10 bore load.
: One quote I do remember from the "The Field"(reprint) was "I see no reason to shake my gun, when an ounce kills everything I aim at" I don't remember who said that, but it stuck with me.
: I do know that Taylor reduced his shot charge to 1 1/4 ounces with 2 1/2 drams of powder and now practically smokes birds with his Bess, rather than chipping them. He had been shooting 2 to 2 1/4 ounces with terrible results - on both ends. His reasoning was that his Bess is a 10 bore and those are current 10 bore loads.
: Late in the 1800's when the 2 3/4" case was born, the shot charge was allowed to go up to 1 1/4 ounces due to the length of case, but it was felt to be excessive for the 12 bore, being a normal 2 7/8" 10 bore load.
: One quote I do remember from the "The Field"(reprint) was "I see no reason to shake my gun, when an ounce kills everything I aim at" I don't remember who said that, but it stuck with me.
: I do know that Taylor reduced his shot charge to 1 1/4 ounces with 2 1/2 drams of powder and now practically smokes birds with his Bess, rather than chipping them. He had been shooting 2 to 2 1/4 ounces with terrible results - on both ends. His reasoning was that his Bess is a 10 bore and those are current 10 bore loads.
"I read that you could use gravel or grain size smooth rocks if need be"
I have an original Civil War period military caplock which was my grandfathers, he bought it for 50 cents at an auction in the late 1890's when he was a boy he told me that he used pebbles for rabbits and prarrie hens in the Dakotas at the turn of the century....the condition of the bore would tend to confirm his story..he told me he would shoot...then pick himself up and go see if he had hit his game.
I have an original Civil War period military caplock which was my grandfathers, he bought it for 50 cents at an auction in the late 1890's when he was a boy he told me that he used pebbles for rabbits and prarrie hens in the Dakotas at the turn of the century....the condition of the bore would tend to confirm his story..he told me he would shoot...then pick himself up and go see if he had hit his game.
My first time out with my double ML shotgun was a real eye opener! I had shot modern shotguns all my life and so upon using a scooped 1 1/8th oz. load and looking at it in the palm of my hand I thought - that don't look like enough shot! I proceeded to add what I though would make a better pattern and dumped it down the barrel on top of the 90gr charge of FFFg. Boy what a surprise...ouch! I later weighed the shot charge and found it to be well over 2oz! :shocking: :nono:
Here's a start. Lemme know if you want more references.
V.M. Starr: http://members.aye.net/~bspen/starr.html
Cap'n Ball: http://cap-n-ball.com/shotgun.htm
BP Smoothbore Loads: http://members.aye.net/~bspen/SmoothboreLoads.html
These are my general rules, YMMV! ALWAYS load by volume, not weight. For a 12 ga I started with a dipper made of a modern 12 ga hull trimmed to an overall outside length of 1". I use this for BOTH shot and powder. This load in my 12 ga CVA will punch #4 shot through both sides of a Campbell Soup's can at 25 yards and delivers quail, dove and pheasant to my table. The can penetration "test" was my grandfather's "poor man's chronograph."
Good Shooting!
GrayBear
V.M. Starr: http://members.aye.net/~bspen/starr.html
Cap'n Ball: http://cap-n-ball.com/shotgun.htm
BP Smoothbore Loads: http://members.aye.net/~bspen/SmoothboreLoads.html
These are my general rules, YMMV! ALWAYS load by volume, not weight. For a 12 ga I started with a dipper made of a modern 12 ga hull trimmed to an overall outside length of 1". I use this for BOTH shot and powder. This load in my 12 ga CVA will punch #4 shot through both sides of a Campbell Soup's can at 25 yards and delivers quail, dove and pheasant to my table. The can penetration "test" was my grandfather's "poor man's chronograph."
Good Shooting!
GrayBear
Guest
: When I find a charge that shoots well using an adjustable measure, I make a horn/brass or copper measure that throws that amount. I weight the stricken charge and try to remember to record it for future reference. Anymore, I just can't remember the charges of every firearm, modern and muzzleloading that I load for. Keeping journals of my loading and re-loading has been a part of this hobby for me for 39 years, now. Currently, I have around 15 of them, that I can think of right now.
