Should I Do This - "Hardening Parts"

[LeMat1856]

while surfing at the n-ssa, i decided to post a question or two about my lemat and see what they had to say.... much to my surprise, this was one of the recommendations.... since i know nothing about the prospective longevity of this gun, i really don't want to be spending more than i already have in a few years just because pietta uses "the 5 yard test" and not the 5 year test when building this or some other repro.

what do you think of this recommendation from an experienced n-ssa member:

"Welcome to the world of Italian Reproductions. Craftmanship is not particularly good... These guns, while basically safe, are not really made for shooting live fire accurately but to pass the 5 yard test--- to look like the originals from 5 yards away. The main market is the Re-enactor crowd, not the serious shooter."

"If you keep it, One thing you need to do before you get too far along is to dis-assemble the smaller inner parts and harden them. The Italian repros have become notorious for the inner parts, sear tumbler etc. being too soft for heavy use. They will wear out quickly if you don't. Then you will have to hand fit replacement parts to the weapon."

[i asked him to elaborate]

"Hardening means exactly that, taking a peice of iron or steel and making the surface harder so that it resists wear. Essentially, the process is fairly easy. It involves adding carbon to the steel surface through a heat treatment. You can do this your self by obtaining a product called Kasenit(sp?) I got mine from Dixie Gun Works. You will need a propane or mapp gas torch and something to hold the part while you heat it to cherry red. Follow the directions on the package. It is not difficult. The surface is hardened to a few thousands deep into the part. The trick is to not make it so hard it becomes brittle. 2-3 treatments is all you need."

'easy' is a relative concept... i have none of this equipment nor the experience to use it.

~daniel~

 

[44-henry]

I had a Pietta Lemat some years back and found it to be decent quality. I shot it a couple times, but found it more interesting to look at and kind of a pain to clean. I have had lots of other Pietta revolvers and generally have found them usable as is. I suppose the steel might be softer, but if you really are going to got to all the trouble this poster stated you are better off to just buy yourself a Uberti or a Colt to start with.

As far as the casehardening issues is concerned it is not all that difficult. I do a lot of bone and charcoal casehardening and have my students do it every year in my manufacturing class, it is not all that hard with the proper equipment. You can do the simpler process described with a good torch (propane will work on small parts but it helps if you have a heat shield to reflect heat back). The bigger issue is whether the parts warp during the quench process. This is quite possible and could involve extensive refitting (or even scrapping the part). In short I guess I wouldn't worry to much about it and just go ahead and shoot the gun as is. Unless I'm mistaken Pietta is the only company that makes Lemat reproductions anyways.

 

[Zonie]

The poster may be correct about the hardness of the parts. I do not know.
I do know that if it were mine and I planned on shooting it a lot if it were a Colt or Remington which is very easy to disassemble and reassemble I would try to get access to the triggers sear which engages the hammer notches. I would also want access to the hammers half cock and full cock notches.
After getting access to these two important places I would use a small file to try to file these surfaces. I would expect them to show almost no sign (other than being brightened) from my small filing effort.
If they seemed to polish but didn't show any real signs of material being removed I would put it back together with the knowledge that the parts are hard enough for service.

If the little file actually started removing material because the surfaces were not hardened then I would consider removing them and case hardening them as was suggested.

If your parts are indeed not hardened and you decide to case harden them, let us know about it in the Gun Builders Bench and we can guide you thru the process (which includes a tempering step that the poster forgot to mention.)

By the way, I've never taken a LeMat apart so I don't know how easy it is to get at the triggers sear or the notches on the hammer.
If you have good instructions from the guns maker then follow them to disassemble it. If it looks like it may be too difficult to do this then just go ahead and shoot it.

 

[J.D.]

I would say that it depends. Are you a shooter?
If so, go for it. What do you have to lose? Either way, the internals will need to be replaced, at some point.

I'm a shooter, so For me, it would make sense to harden those parts.

I once had an old Italian percussion revolver that was shot a LOT. It didn't take long for wear to cause premature discharges. Case hardening those internals would have prevented those dangerous PD's.

I do suggest buying a set of new internal parts. Fit them, one by one, then case harden and temper the old parts, or the new parts. If the newly case hardened parts warp, then install the replacement parts.

Warped parts can sometimes be annealed, straightened, and hardened and tempered again, with support to prevent warpage.

Parts with a screw hole can be held with a wire through the hole, heated to a bright red orange with Kasnit applied, and quenched in warm water. Polish off any scale, temper, and install.

The spring will need to be removed from the pawl prior to case hardening.

 

[bingo1952]

The poster may be correct about the hardness of the parts. I do not know.
I do know that if it were mine and I planned on shooting it a lot if it were a Colt or Remington which is very easy to disassemble and reassemble I would try to get access to the triggers sear which engages the hammer notches. I would also want access to the hammers half cock and full cock notches.
After getting access to these two important places I would use a small file to try to file these surfaces. I would expect them to show almost no sign (other than being brightened) from my small filing effort.
If they seemed to polish but didn't show any real signs of material being removed I would put it back together with the knowledge that the parts are hard enough for service.

If the little file actually started removing material because the surfaces were not hardened then I would consider removing them and case hardening them as was suggested.

If your parts are indeed not hardened and you decide to case harden them, let us know about it in the Gun Builders Bench and we can guide you thru the process (which includes a tempering step that the poster forgot to mention.)

By the way, I've never taken a LeMat apart so I don't know how easy it is to get at the triggers sear or the notches on the hammer.
If you have good instructions from the guns maker then follow them to disassemble it. If it looks like it may be too difficult to do this then just go ahead and shoot it.

If the parts are case hardened with a torch in Kasenit or Cherry Red no tempering will be required because the case is only going to go .002-.003 thousandths of an inch over a soft core. If however they are through hardened a tempering step will be need to keep the parts from being too brittle.

The really serious N-SSA guys will fire thousands of rounds a year in competition.

 

Back when I was involved in cowboy action shooting my first handgun was an Uberti copy of a Colt piece maker. After shooting this gun for about six months the fireing pin loosened up in the hammer to the point where I had to take center punch and put several indentions around the pin to tighten it.The fact that i could make a dent in that hammer proved that it was very soft. I had a colt made hammer handy could not make a mark in it withthe enter punch. Now if that does not prove how soft Italian gun metal is I don't know what will?

 

[mykeal]

Now if that does not prove how soft Italian gun metal is I don't know what will?

What it shows is that you are making a generalization about an entire population based on a single example. Not always a wise thing.

However, the Italian replicas did go through a period of poorly done metal finishes, and the 'soft metal' moniker was certainly justified. I believe the condition existed on a large percentage, if not all, of the Italian offerings for a few years.

I also believe its pretty well been corrected, although I still hear of an occasional example of a single part being soft. None of my current 15 Italian replicas have a soft hammer or trigger, but I haven't tested all the bolts, hands and springs, so there could be a lurker in there somewhere. None have shown premature wear signs though, so perhaps not.

I should mention for what it's worth that I don't necessarily have the courage of my convictions - I have purchased spare action parts with the expectation that I will need to replace them eventually.

 

[44-henry]

Even a properly casehardened surface will dent relatively easy. If it is a low carbon steel to begin with generally the case is not going to penetrate the entire section and a good sharp blow will push the harder surface into the softer core. It can be frustrating to do surface hardness tests on a casehardened surface because of this.

 

[LeMat1856]

for what it's worth, this has CC as the year code (= 2008) and says "case hardened trigger and hammer" but makes no mention of any other parts as being so.

i would rather buy the replacement parts now, have them ready to be hardened if the originals fail, and then just wait for it to happen instead of tinkering with something that ain't broke.

how does that go: if it ain't broke....

problem is, i don't know which parts he was referring to...! ha!

 

[mykeal]

i would rather buy the replacement parts now, have them ready to be hardened if the originals fail, and then just wait for it to happen instead of tinkering with something that ain't broke.

how does that go: if it ain't broke....

problem is, i don't know which parts he was referring to...! ha!

Good plan. Purchase: trigger, hand (with spring) assembly, bolt, trigger/bolt spring. I doubt you will need a hammer, but nothing wrong with getting a spare one of those also. And some Kasenite, if you can find it. Brownell's sells it but are often out of it. Try Google to find a seller. And buy a copy of Cumpston and Bates Percussion Pistols and Revolvers, History Performance and Practical Use from Amazon.com and read Chapter 24 for instructions on disassembly to the detailed parts level - the Lemat is NOT a Colt and disassembly is NOT straightforward.

 

[Old40Rod]

Kasenite, if you can find it. Brownell's sells it but are often out of it.

MBS, TOTW, etc., also generally carry Kasenite. Its not a bad idea to have some around anyway for hardening up screws and such.

 

[mike alexandre]

A good point. Some of the Pedersoli guns I have show signs of inadequate hardening to some parts, ie locks and hook. Most are ok.