Showing my ignorance

[hwalker]

I'm showing my ignorance here, and I need to be educated.

I read the thread on using commercial buckshut in a 32 caliber rifle, so I thought I would try it to see for myself what would happen.

Results using 0 buck, nominally .320 in diameter in a 32 muleear side hammer.
- .015 pillow ticking patch - very hard to load
- .010 patch, stiff to load, but about the same as with a .310 ball and .015 patch.

Both combinations grouped about 1 inch or less at 25 yards from the bench, both with moose snot lube. I expect the rifle is capable of smaller groups, but with my eyes, I'm not.

The 0 buck was as large as the bore, or slightly larger, a ball would not drop down the barrel without a patch, it was obvious that some swaging was occuring, in order to seat the ball at all.

Just for grins, I tried loading the 0 buck with NO patch, to see if the swaging was enough to provide a seal.
The bare ball loaded easily, after the inital shove to start it down the barrel.

To my surprise, I got at least as good a group, if not better, as when using patches, with the same point of impact.

Now here is where I need educating. What am I missing by not using a patch? I'm thinking there may be some loss of velocity, due to gas blowby without a patch, but for a 32 for saall game, would it be enough to matter? It certainly didn't seem to affect accuracy. What else might be a problem?

Thanks
Hugh

 

You ain't missin' nuthin' not using a patch!
You might get some leading, but not using the patch won't hurt anything if the ball seats in the rifling.
Ever see a muzzleloading cannon use a patch?
You won't loose any velocity to speak of not using a patch as the patch is not gasket that seals the gases anyway.
Well now let the crap fly! :applause: ::

 

[Ohio Joe]

Velocity and accuracy will be effected... A patch is used to retain the ball riding on the lands of the rifling so it will not work forward of the charge... A benefit of the patch is it will improve your accuracy as the patch, in it's own way, act as a gas check... Blow your patch, chances are you blow a good shot... A patch will also push fouling ahead of it, giving you a cleaner bore from shot to shot, then just letting the crud build in the grooves... A patch will also eliminate leading of the barrel, and make loading easier because your using and undersized ball. The patch will take up the difference... The patch does a lot of work in a rifle bore...

 

[roundball]

Well now let the crap fly! :applause: ::

I think it just did... :nono:

 

hwalker,,so ya changed patch size,2wice,ball size 2wice,used the same lube and got the same accuracy as using a ball and no patch at 25 yards all in the same day.
atta boy! dat's learnin hoow ta shute guud! and a 'x-special aside" too bein able ta be readin the all us dat help ya at dis "forum",,hOpp ya keep on larnin more stuff frum us,,glad ta be hear fer ya,,,,

Now,,the guy shoot's all the prb combos,,say's he can shoot as well with a fouled bore and no patch.!? Anybody got an idea? What can help this new poster. What can we do too help? Any one seen this kind of stuff? ever?

 

[musketman]

I am comcerned about if the barrel tilts down, will the unpatched ball move forwards and make an air pocket between the ball and powder?

If it doesn't move forwards when tilted down, then the ball will most likely enlarge to fit the grooves apon firing and seal the bore like a lead bullet would, I suspect this is what happened...

You could dip the shot in melted bees wax and let harden, then load the ball with it's wax seal, works kind of like a lube and the wax will keep the ball from moving forwards until fired...

 

[roundball]

MM, I've shot patched balls into jugs of water and recovered them for purposes of quasi penetration testing, and have never seen rifling marks on one.
Not sure I'm sold on the notion that a round ball expands into the grooves of a rifle like a minnie ball skirt does...what are your thoughts

 

Maxiball - I respect you and your knowledge, BUT - I have to disagree with the coment about the patch not being a gasget. I take "gasget" as meaning something that seals the powder gasses behind the ball. If we agree on that, then:
: Between the ball's very slight expansion due to inertia, and the tightness & integrity of the cloth patch between the ball and bore, the powder gasses become sealed behind the ball. If not, the patch & BALL will be burnt by gasses going by. If that happens to our combination, we use a tighter ball/patch combination. That's about as close to a gasget as you can get. No "Filler" or Extra material is needed with a 'proper' combination, nor is cleaning or swabbing except after a day's shooting.
; I would expect that the 'proper' ball/patch combo for this .32 rifle, with a .320 bore, and 7 or 8 thou rifling, would be a .315" ball and .012" to .015" patch. I would use denim as it is a nice tight strong weave and isn't prone to tearing on the crown.
; None of my rifles has ever given a higher velocity with an extra "wad" behind the ball - something that Fadala says happens with his combinations. That is why he needs a gasget(wadding)in his rifles, the patch isn't doing it's job - SO - for HIM, the patch ISN'T a gasget - for many of us, it is.

 

Hwalker - a good smoothbore barrel, like the .77 cal Colraine barrel, will stack musket balls at 25yds. giving the same size groups as you got from your rifle, but these are fromoma smoothbored musket. The reason is, 25yds. isn't a very good test - try 50yds. and repeat your test. I think you'll find different results.

 

[Stumpkiller]

500 years of using patches for nothing! What fools we all have been . It's a ruse by the cotton industry to generate business!

Try shooting a patchless ball in a previously clean barrel. If you do this several times, cleaning between shots to replicate hunting where shots are infrequent, not only will you get a lesson in bore leading (the rifling will 'peel' a loose fit ball as it careens down the barrel) but you'll see the shots are not grouping as well. The fouling is acting as a bore sleeve, giving you a reduced diameter smoothbore.

As Daryl mentions, try again at 'rifle' distances of 75 to 100 yards. If the ball isn't upsetting enough to take the rifling you'll be throwing sliders and knuckle-balls. A conical has a bearing surface of maybe 50% of it's diameter (it would be more without the grease grooves). A round ball of the diameter of the lands has maybe 10%, even after it upsets.

Besides, using Moose Snot will make your breath fresher and your children will listen to you and follow your desires. :haha:

 

[hwalker]

Thanks all

I'm still experimenting and learning as I go.

I wasn't really planning on continuing to shoot without a patch, I was just wondering what the problems and consequences would be.

I have already picked up a couple of yards of material to use with the 0 buck, since the 015 pillow ticking was so hard to load. I found some 100% cotton muslin that is not as thick as the pillow ticking.

Thanks again
Hugh

 

A matrial we've found sot answer well for patching with alrger balls, is rugby pant material. Try asking for it at the yard-goods store. it is a solf denim around .015" thick but will compress somewhat when wet with lube. Ticking wlll be quite stiff unless washed a couple times.
; Perhaps this thin denim is what you've found.

 

[musketman]

I have already picked up a couple of yards of material to use with the 0 buck, since the 015 pillow ticking was so hard to load. I found some 100% cotton muslin that is not as thick as the pillow ticking.

While you are experimenting, try an old T-shirt, Silk from your wife's robe, canvas from an old tent, ect...

Stay away from polyesters, they melt, terry-cloth is bad, too loose of a weave...

A pure lead ball will expand in diameter slightly when shot, but shorten in length, almost oval in shape, as the force of the powder exploding causes this effect...

Buckshot may not unless it is pure lead, I suspect it is an alloy though...