Sighting in .45 caliber

[Number19]

I've done a bit of searching and I think I have a pretty good idea what's been written, but would appreciate comments.

I've a TVM .45 caliber with a 42" "C" wt Rice barrel, which I'll be using primarily for our monthly competition shoots. We shoot a target at 25 yds, then another at 50 yds and a final target at 100 yds.


"Sighting in" is a bit of a misnomer, in that you have a fixed rear sight and a fixed front sight, which you set initially and then won't change. With any given combination of ball and charge your POI will change.

So, the first thing is to determine what combination of ball and charge to use for filing your sights, or, in other words, to sight your rifle.

I've decided to use 70 grs of 3F Swiss, with a .440 ball and .015 patching. So, is this a reasonable decision? Today I shot three shots, the first two being one ragged hole and the third shot 7/8" left and 3/8" high.

Now, to "sight" my rifle, our range's benches, suitable for a long rifle, is available only on the 50yd/100yd range. So this distance is preferred for the sighting in. If another distance is actually better, I can probably borrow a target stand (until I have one made for myself).

On another thread I commented that the front sight which came with my rifle was too low and I was shooting about 6" high at 50 yds. Today I replaced my front sight and my initial shots indicate I'm now shooting about 2 1/2" low at 50 yds. This is good. I can now start filing it down to fine tune my accuracy.

From what I've read, I should adjust my front sight until I'm shooting 1 1/2" high at 50 yds. This will put me about 3/4" high at 25 yds and about 1" low at 100 yds.

Does this sound right? I would appreciate all comments. Thanks.

 

[Lonegun1894]

I know this may sound like a waste of powder and lead at first, but it WILL pay off in the long run. Try different powder loads, patch thicknesses, even ball sizes, and different lubes before you ever mess with the sights. You aren't trying to hit the bulls eye yet, but seeing what gives you the smallest groups. This way you can figure out what gives you the smallest groups first, and then sight your rifle in for that specific load, instead of settling on a mediocre load combination and the resulting less than perfect performance. It takes a little time, but it gives you a chance to really get to know the preferences of your rifle and then you dont have to replace sights, then work up a load, replace them again, and work up more loads, and then finally get it right--like I did. My first ML rifle would do no better than about 18" groups at 50yds with the very first load I tried because I had no clue what I was doing. This same rifle, many shots, and a lot of miles and meat later, will do 4 inches or better at 100yds on demand. The problem wasn't the rifle, it was me and my having some initial trouble making the transition from modern suppository guns and what works for them to these traditional guns.

 

[Stony]

You first need to find what powder/patch/ball/lube combo YOUR gun prefers. pick a combo you like, shoot a few targets/groups. Then change one item in your combo and see what effect it has on your groups. Increase it and then decrease it. Please use common sense. Trying to use a .451 ball with a .022 patch may require a sledgehammer to get the ball down the barrel. But you can probably use either .440, .435 or .445 balls with the right thickness of patch material. Find the right combo first, then you can start filing your sights. Don't assume a .440 ball & .015 patch will load the same as a .445 ball with a .010 patch. Try it and confirm it. Write stuff down on the targets with all the information you have available about the load, the conditions, whatever. How well you do will be more up to you. Good luck.

 

[Number19]

Should I perform this at 100 yds? And I would think, for best results, you'd perform this only when there is no wind?

 

[cynthialee]

Should I perform this at 100 yds? And I would think, for best results, you'd perform this only when there is no wind?

multiple ranges and various weather conditions

I need to work on this department myself. Too much bench shooting at 25-50 yards and no variables in weather conditions. It gets cold or windy and I just can't seem to drag my rifles out.

 

[Nessmuck56]

I have a green mountain 45cal barrel. And use a 445 ball and 015-017 spit patch. It would not shoot a 440 ball for nothing . I have always had better groups with the biggest ball and patch combo. Check your patches for cuts and burnouts . And 70 grains of GOEX FFF is a good starting point and increase by 5 grains and see what happens

 

[Trench]

I don't know if this will help, or not. I received a .45 this summer. It shoots 1.5in high at 50yds with a 52gr load of 3F Goex and a .020 spit patch. So, I use a six-o-clock hold between 25 yds and 50 yds.

If I load it with a 70gr 3F Goex it shoots at about point-of-aim at 100yds and still about 1.5in high at 50yds.

My rifle has a Charles Burton 44in round-bottom groove barrel.

 

[Number19]

I don't know if this will help, or not. I received a .45 this summer. It shoots 1.5in high at 50yds with a 52gr load of 3F Goex and a .020 spit patch. So, I use a six-o-clock hold between 25 yds and 50 yds.

If I load it with a 70gr 3F Goex it shoots at about point-of-aim at 100yds and still about 1.5in high at 50yds.

My rifle has a Charles Burton 44in round-bottom groove barrel.

I was hoping you'd chip in with a comment; Fearnought is one sweet rifle and I remember you commented a few days ago that you didn't have to adjust for elevation out to 100 yds.

 

[Dphar]

If you have a good load, and 70 gr of FFF is probably going to be close.
Sight it at 100 so that you have a comfortable sight picture and its "on".
You will have to adjust your hold anyway.
Now IF the rifle will shoot at 50 with a lighter load you can shoot a lighter load. BUT you MUST shoot the most accurate load or you will sacrifice points in matches. The point of shooting matches to win. You should NEVER shoot anything but the most accurate load and 3 shot groups are not adequate unless 3-4 groups are shot.
Changing loads will be a compromise. Its not likely that a rifle will have 2-3-4 most accurate loads. Find a load that will shoot into 1" or less for 8-10 shots at 50 yards with a rest. Put up wind flags and see how the wind effects the ball. 10 mph change will move a ball 1-2" at 50 maybe more. So the shooter must either wait for a uniform condition or learn to hold for the wind. But this takes practice. Shoot 10 different aiming points if you like so you can accurately see where each shot went. But the aiming points should be close together to preserve position the position on the bench.
FIND WHERE THE RIFLE LIKES TO BE RESTED. Changing this can change accuracy and point of impact in some barrels. So changing the rest point every shot can blow the group...
Changing from rest to offhand may change the impact point.
People don't have to do these things. But if they want to WIN they have to.
Dan

PS a friend gets best accuracy with .451 in his Green Mountain 45. It shoots EXTEMELY well.

 

[Nessmuck56]

Thanks for that info... A .451 mold is going to be on its way!!!

 

[Trench]

I don't know if this will help, or not. I received a .45 this summer. It shoots 1.5in high at 50yds with a 52gr load of 3F Goex and a .020 spit patch. So, I use a six-o-clock hold between 25 yds and 50 yds.

If I load it with a 70gr 3F Goex it shoots at about point-of-aim at 100yds and still about 1.5in high at 50yds.

My rifle has a Charles Burton 44in round-bottom groove barrel.

I was hoping you'd chip in with a comment; Fearnought is one sweet rifle and I remember you commented a few days ago that you didn't have to adjust for elevation out to 100 yds.

It's quickly becoming, no, it IS my favorite rifle of all I've owned. I'm really happy with the way the .440 ball performs out to 100yds with the two "sweet spots" I've found.

I think I can say the .45 is my favorite caliber since I got in to muzzleloading 6 years ago.

 

[Trench]

Thanks for that info... A .451 mold is going to be on its way!!!

Let us know how that works out!!

 

[Rifleman1776]

I've decided to use 70 grs of 3F Swiss, with a .440 ball and .015 patching. So, is this a reasonable decision?

I haven't read the other responses so this may duplicate what others have already posted.
To answer your question: No.
You don't decide what works best in your rifle. Your rifle decides what works best in it. Finnickier than a house cat.
Initial sighting in from a bench at 50 yards is considered an almost standard approach.
First work with your various ball/patch/powder combos until you find which groups best.
Never mind where the group is hitting. Just get it grouping first.
Then, using a drift and small hammer move the sights to left or right to bring the group centered horizontially.
If you are grouping low you will need to take off some of the top of the front sight. If you are printing high you might have to replace the front sight with a taller one to bring the POI down.
Once zeroed, and it can take time, powder and lead, you should be able to hold center at 25 and 50 yards and a tad high at 100 for center accuracy.
It won't happen over night. Takes work. Good luck.

 

[Number19]

...People don't have to do these things. But if they want to WIN they have to...

Lot of good info here, as well as the other posts. I recall reading a bit back someone mentioned they were still slowly working on the sighting of their rifle - after a year's time.

Our club's black powder group is moderate size with maybe a dozen shooters some months. Most are just average shooters and I should be able to hang with them - I'm a fair off hand shooter with open sights (CZ .22) - but we have one club member who is a nationally ranked competition shooter. I've never met the gentleman and can't recall his name, but one weekend I was just watching the shoot. Everyone, but one, had this little waver at the end of the barrel. But this one rifle was as rock steady as if supported by a rest. It had to have been him.

 

[Rifleman1776]

Keep us informed about your progress.
Enjoy. :thumbsup:

 

[Greg Blackburn]

Wow, some good info there!

It will be next spring before I can get these two flinters out but I'll be out there!

Greg

 

[Leatherbark]

If you have a good load, and 70 gr of FFF is probably going to be close.
Sight it at 100 so that you have a comfortable sight picture and its "on".
You will have to adjust your hold anyway.
Now IF the rifle will shoot at 50 with a lighter load you can shoot a lighter load. BUT you MUST shoot the most accurate load or you will sacrifice points in matches. The point of shooting matches to win. You should NEVER shoot anything but the most accurate load and 3 shot groups are not adequate unless 3-4 groups are shot.
Changing loads will be a compromise. Its not likely that a rifle will have 2-3-4 most accurate loads. Find a load that will shoot into 1" or less for 8-10 shots at 50 yards with a rest. Put up wind flags and see how the wind effects the ball. 10 mph change will move a ball 1-2" at 50 maybe more. So the shooter must either wait for a uniform condition or learn to hold for the wind. But this takes practice. Shoot 10 different aiming points if you like so you can accurately see where each shot went. But the aiming points should be close together to preserve position the position on the bench.
FIND WHERE THE RIFLE LIKES TO BE RESTED. Changing this can change accuracy and point of impact in some barrels. So changing the rest point every shot can blow the group...
Changing from rest to offhand may change the impact point.
People don't have to do these things. But if they want to WIN they have to.
Dan

PS a friend gets best accuracy with .451 in his Green Mountain 45. It shoots EXTEMELY well.

I agree with all of what Don is saying. I've tried various powder charges at different ranges this last year and it has cost me points in matches. Find your most accurate load. You will be shooting at different size bullseyes anyway so you will have to use Ky windage no matter what with the fixed sights in order to hit center in each size bull. I wouldnt sweat not having a 25 yard bench as your match shooting will most likely be offhand anyway and one always needs to master the 25 yard offhand targets to "catch up" on points.

Try to figure out how you like to hold. I like my rifle to be sighted to hold dead on the X at the 25 yard target. It will be rising in trajectory and be high at 50 but the bullseye is larger. Then it should be dead on at 100 yards. Find that load that will do this or close to it.

70 grains of 3f Swiss is like 90 grains of Goex in my testing several years ago. So that load should shoot very flat, but I'll bet that .015 patch shows damage. I'd use a heavier patch with that Swiss.

Looks like you have a good start on things here.

Good Luck

Bob

 

[Stony]

Most people I know start at 25 yards, it seems easier for most. And yes, try to do this when there is no or just a little wind.

 

[Dphar]

Thanks for that info... A .451 mold is going to be on its way!!!

You may need to adjust patch thickness cotton drill (like thinner canvas) is thinner than ticking.
A medium weight linen works well too.
It may still load harder than some like. Measure the balls to see that they are really the listed diameter. Sometimes they vary. Use a micrometer. Even a good dial caliper is generally a little off.
Dan

 

[Number19]

At my office, I'm laying out a target to use. Can someone give me an idea, everything being equal, how much drop to expect when moving from 70 grains to 35 grains. Can I use 8 1/2" x 11", or will I need 11" x 17" , or will I need even more length below the X.