Smokeless Powder in a Muzzleloader

[Jarikeen]

Whilst this is not a particular flintlock question, it does relate to muzzleloaders. Forgive my ignorance, but I always had the impression that to use smokeless powder in a muzzleloader was dangerous - yet I've found a webpage that gives the impression that most muzzleloaders are now using smokeless powders.

 

Perhaps you're confused about "smokeless powder" as compared to blackpowder substitutes that don't produce all the smoke that real blackpowder creates.

 

[Halftail]

Don't Savage Arms make an I____e Muzzleloader that uses Smokeless powders.
That's a scarey thought now Aint it. :youcrazy:

 

[Rebel]

Yes they do, and it was not a real smart move on their part as far as i am concerned. It is an accident waiting to happen. Whatever you do, DON'T use SMOKELESS powder in any ML'er not designed for it, and the only one designed for it is the Savage. The results of doing so could disasteroue.

 

[Landngroove]

Just goes to show that you can't believe all that you read.

 

[Blivetmaker]

We're shooting replica weapons or originals that were designed to withstand pressures that result from the combustion of black powder. This is just fine. Firearms are, after all built to handle specific propellants driving a reasonable projectile. Savage has seen fit to build a linear lead accelerator that uses nitro-based propellant.
It was designed for it! If I loaded my 12 gauge shells up with "good ol' bullseye" (pistol powder)
I'd deserve what was coming to me. I don't see the new fangled inliners as dangerous although I humbly submit my own personal opinion that if you don't use a sidelock you're cheating yourself more than you'll benefit from a faster locktime.
It is the owner's responsibility to insure that he/she knows and understands the proper handling of the firearms he/she owns or uses. This includes loading data for weapons that utilise loose propellant and projectile.
Freedom is wonderful but it ain't cheap. A free person can enjoy a rewarding hobby for a life time. He can also stop enjoying it in exactly the time it takes for a piece of barrel steel moving at just under the speed of sound to go though his cerebral cortex. Read the booklet. Ask if you're not sure about anything. Everyone here will help.
:thumbsup:

 

[Maestro]

It is the owner's responsibility...

Amen!

Freedom is wonderful but it ain't cheap.

...and Amen!

Personal responsibility! What a concept!

 

[Maynerd62411]

Savage Model 10-II is the one that is designed to use smokeless powder. A bolt action in-line.

 

[Zonie]

As I recall, the Savage that was designed for smokeless powder is the same kind of gun that blew up and almost killed ole what's his name that was spouting off about how wonderful it was.
I heard he is off working for some other company hyping their modern muzzleloader.

Jarikeen: You are correct when you say "but I always had the impression that to use smokeless powder in a muzzleloader was dangerous..."

Folks must use real Black Powder or an authorized Black Powder substitute only in their muzzleloaders.
Some time back, someone loaded smokeless in his pistol because "it was black". Of course, it blew up his gun.

 

[Wes/Tex]

Believe the BOOM count now stands at two, at least the last I heard. It's also the giving the "Antis" ammo (pun intended) to have muzzleloaders classified as "firearms" with all the accompaning paperwork and fees! Nice world in which we live!!

 

[Stumpkiller]

As I recall, the Savage that was designed for smokeless powder is the same kind of gun that blew up and almost killed ole what's his name that was spouting off about how wonderful it was.
I heard he is off working for some other company hyping their modern muzzleloader.

Jarikeen: You are correct when you say "but I always had the impression that to use smokeless powder in a muzzleloader was dangerous..."

Folks must use real Black Powder or an authorized Black Powder substitute only in their muzzleloaders.
Some time back, someone loaded smokeless in his pistol because "it was black". Of course, it blew up his gun.

Nah. That gun commited suicide because it was so embarassed it had ever been created. Bolt-action smokeless muzzleloader? Sheesh.

A bird can love a fish, but where would they build a nest? Some things just should not be and are abominations to nature. :winking:

 

[Greenmtnboy]

ya and it don't shoot fer !#$& wish these pilgs who are to lazy to learn the old ways would just stay at home. It stinks!!!! that our fish and game dep.. buttt kiss gun and outfitters demands.
I guide here in CO and there is nothin! primitive about inlines of today. :nono:

 

[musketman]

Please keep in mind that this topic is about "smokeless powder in a muzzleloader", not about inlines per sé, even though one did use smokeless powder...

If this turns into an inline dominant thread we will lock it in regards to the No Inline policy...

Now, even if the same steel is used in a blackpowder firearm that is used in a smokeless gun it will still be dangerous, why?

The breech area is not designed to withstand the higher pressures generated by the smokeless powder, this could result in you getting a breech plug exploding into your face when you pull the trigger...

It's graphic, but true, no way to sugar-coat it, your face will be right above it when it fails...

It's not worth the risk of dying...

 

[Blivetmaker]

If you still have the link to the aforementioned site, please post it as I'd like to have a look-see. If it really is misleading, I'll contact the author. Maybe save some folks a jolly ration of grief.. :shocked2:

 

Here, Here!!

 

[Jarikeen]

Thankyou all for clearing that up for me. There are two articles in the muzzle loading section of savageshooters web page. I may have read the context of the articules incorrectly - they may have been talking particularly about their smokeless muzzleloader. The manner in which smokeless powder and blackpowder are compared clouds the distinction.

 

If you still have the link to the aforementioned site, please post it as I'd like to have a look-see. If it really is misleading, I'll contact the author. Maybe save some folks a jolly ration of grief.. :shocked2:

If you're talking about Wakman has been contacted and verbally beaten up over this issue. He's not going to change his mind. He used to be on this board until he got booted.

 

[Pittsburghunter]

This is written on every page of the Thompson Center muzzleloading website

"WARNING!!!!
MAKE NO MISTAKE ABOUT IT. BLACK POWDER OR A RECOMMENDED BLACK POWDER SUBSTITUTE ARE THE ONLY PROPELLENT POWDERS THAT ARE SAFE TO USE IN A MUZZLELOADING FIREARM.

NEVER USE SMOKELESS POWDER OF ANY TYPE IN ANY QUANTITY IN A MUZZLELOADING FIREARM, AND NEVER MIX POWDERS. THE USE OF ANY SMOKELESS POWDER COULD RESULT IN A DETONATION OR EXPLOSION WHICH COULD CAUSE INJURY AND/OR DEATH TO THE SHOOTER OR BYSTANDERS AND DAMAGE TO PROPERTY.

\\\\ ©2005 Thompson/Center Arms \\\\"


I have seen only one blown up m/l and yep you guessed it the owner used smokeless powder in it.

 

[paulvallandigham]

This is written on every page of the Thompson Center muzzleloading website

"WARNING!!!!
MAKE NO MISTAKE ABOUT IT. BLACK POWDER OR A RECOMMENDED BLACK POWDER SUBSTITUTE ARE THE ONLY PROPELLENT POWDERS THAT ARE SAFE TO USE IN A MUZZLELOADING FIREARM.

NEVER USE SMOKELESS POWDER OF ANY TYPE IN ANY QUANTITY IN A MUZZLELOADING FIREARM, AND NEVER MIX POWDERS. THE USE OF ANY SMOKELESS POWDER COULD RESULT IN A DETONATION OR EXPLOSION WHICH COULD CAUSE INJURY AND/OR DEATH TO THE SHOOTER OR BYSTANDERS AND DAMAGE TO PROPERTY.

\\\\ ©2005 Thompson/Center Arms \\\\"


I have seen only one blown up m/l and yep you guessed it the owner used smokeless powder in it.

Gentlemen: Just to put some real data before you:

Blackpowder loads, depending on caliber, create breech pressures in the high range of 20,000 psi.

Most are half of that.

Smokeless powder loads create breech pressures, in rifles and handguns running up to 55,000 psi ! Shotgun loads are still down in the 8-9,000 psi range for 12 gauge guns. In Black powder, shotguns run in 5-6,000 psi ranges. Higher in the smaller gauges.

You don't want that kind of pressure trying to get out of a nipple or touchhole that close to your face! In addition, the pressure curves for black powder are like a bell, gradually rising, and then dropping back down, whereas the pressure curve, if you can call it that, for smokeless powder, looks more like a tall Ski jump, with the pressure soaring up in an almost vertical line to its highest point, and then dropping off. It is not only the pressure that provides the danger, but the timing of the pressure when the gun is fired. By the time the average ball is being moved down the barrel using black powder, the pressure curve is just reaching its high point on the bell curve. With smokeless powder, the high point occurs before you can hear the sound of the gun going off, or feel any recoil forces. The bullet has not had time to move out of the caseneck. :shocked2:

 

[riddleofsteel]

The Savage 10ML is a modern rifle designed to shoot smokeless, black and black powder subsitutes. The 10ML design has been proof tested up to 120,000 PSI without barrel rupture. This is three times the pressure of the Savage recommended loads with smokeless powder. The ONLY barrel failure that I know of is a suspected deliberate attempt to destroy that rifle to defame the 10ML and Savage.
The point remains that you do NOT use propellents your firearm is not DESIGNED to use. You would not burn jet fuel in your Volvo or nitro-methane in your lawn mower. In a similar vien I do not burn pure nitro cellulose based powder in my TC Renegade as it was not designed for that. Instead I choose black powder or a black powder substitue. This is in spite of the fact that some BP sustitutes are producing greater pressures than most BP guns should be holding back. Three pellet loads of 777 or Pyrodex with pressures in the 27,000 psi range comes to mind.
The generic term "muzzleloader" today embraces several types of firearms. Some of them are modern firearms fully able to handle smokeless nitro-cellulose powders. Of course some of them were never designed for this and should be fed black powder ONLY. I would refer you to your owners manual for details. If your firearm has no owners manual available refer to the proof testing marks on the barrel for safe pressure limits.

No proof marks or pressure testing info available?

I wouldn't shoot it at all with any propellent.