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Smokepole Noob Needs Help and your Input

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Analog

32 Cal.
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Okay, I'll admit first off that I've never loaded a 'smokepole before - although I've shot them a long time ago. I've been hunting for 20 years with a modern rifle and I obtained a used CVA 54 cal traditional type weapon. I want to try it with deer season this year.

Would it be best to just get one of those 'all in one' kits that has everything you need except the powder and caps? Or do I piece it together?

What is a good powder to use (in terms of corrosiveness, clean up etc)? I've seen those pellets that make measuring powder obsolete, but those seem to only be for 50 cal in-line types, right? How about caps?

What's a good bullet to use for hunting whitetails? What should I know before I begin with this rifle out on the range?

I'm approaching this from the hunting angle, I don't plan to shoot this rifle much the rest of the year.

Sorry for the dumb questions, but I thought I'd get some good advice from you folks to get started. Thanks in advance.
 
Welcome. I am sure someone that has a lot better handle on teaching will see this soon, but I will give you my "opinion" for now. I would get a book written by Sam Fadala, "Black Powder Loading Manual". This book walked me through the steps when I first started.
 
Well, i would suggest that if you don't plan to shoot it the rest of the year, and only want it for killing a deer, that you sell it to someone who is willing to put in the time and Practice it takes to be proficient with one. You can't expect to pick it up once a year and be any good with it. JMO
 
You need to do some shooting before you can try hunting with it. There is more to it than there is with sighting in a modern weapon. The sights need to be adjusted to where you want them, AND you need to work up a powder load. With loose powder, the sights could be dead on for 50 yards with a roundball and say 70 grains. If you add as little as 10 grains and leave everything else alone, the change of the point of impact may be as much as a foot above the top of the target. The 50grain pelletized powder is handy, but you are left with trying to start at either 50 or 100 grains and the "adjustment" is a whopping 50 grains. I don't know what ranges you typically hunt at or what projectile you are thinking about using, but you need to know where this is all going to go when you pull the trigger or you will be stalking game with a wildly inaccurate weapon.
I missed more then one myself just by changing projectiles or adding more powder than I was sighted in for.

As to the other points:

-#11 caps should be fine
-patched round ball or conical(prelubed or lubed by you) usually perform best in a trad gun. depends on the type and the rate of twist in the rifling thought. In .54, anything will work on deer. Good luck
 
Piece your kit together. You'll save money and frustration.
Use real black powder; it goes off more reliably than the imitation stuff. It cleans up better than the imitations, which by the way, are just as corrosive as black. GOEX is a good brand, so is Swiss. Elephant used to be good, may be again, someday.
The pellets did not make loose powder obsolete anymore than steam made sails obsolete. Pellets just make it impossible to adjust your load. They are designed to sell, not to use.
As a side note, one of the most elegant things about muzzleloading is that you can shoot cheap! How many rounds do you put thru your centerfires? Spendy, ain't it?
BP shooting lets you put more time on the range for the same money. It will improve your centerfire shooting.
Caps, or at least my preference in descending order: Nobel, CCI, Remington. Opinions vary.
Good bullet for deer? Your cheapest round to practice with is the patched roundball. It is very effective on deer out to 75 yards. Puts them down like a 30-30. A very good bullet is the CVA deerslayer, out to 100 yards. Many folk claim 125 yards. I would not.
What should you know before hunting? The question boils down to what should your hands know? You need to practice your craft until it becomes muscle memory.
I had practiced for only a month when a rabid raccoon invaded our yard. I shot it at 50 yards. It kept coming. I did not urinate in my pants, contrary to legend, but I did not have my caplock ready to fire until the deranged little bastard was 5 feet from me.
Practice, practice, practice! Buck fever is less deadly than fear of rabies, but can make you just as fumblefingered.
Have fun, shoot a lot, visit this forum, and after a year, you'll be ready.
 
YOu are going to need a list of things to make that gun shoot reliably:

1. Properly sized percussion caps for your nipple. I don't know what you have on that gun. It may be rusty and need to be replaced. If so, replace it. take an extra nipple with your to buy your caps. #11 should work, but some of those guns used European sizing, and a 10.5 cap is what they are designed to use. Try the caps on the nipple to make sure they go on all the way and come off easily.

2. YOu need a nipple pick, and wrench, to clear the nipple between shots, and also clear the flash channel under it to the chamber of the gun. T/C makes a combination tool. Tedd Cash sells an adjustable powder measure that has a funnel attached to help get the powder in the muzzle, and at the other end has a wire attached to the screw in base, which you can use to clear that flash channel.

3. Correct ball size for your gun. Measure both the diameter of the bore across the lands, as well as the diameter of the grooves( groove diameter) to determine how deep the grooves are in your gun. The bore diameter can be used to select the correct caliber or lead ball. Usually, a .530 round ball works, but some have to use a .525. Choose the thickness of the patch based on the difference between the ball diameter and the bore diameter, and, frankly the depth of the grooves that have to be filled.

4. Use Goex FFg powder. Start shooting the round ball with 60 grains and shoot three shot groups off a bench at 25 yds, and then at 50 yds, to see what works in the gun. Go up by 5 grain increments to find an accurate load at 50 yds. Frankly most deer are shot today still at less than 50 yds. You might be one of those hunters who has to take longer shots. Once you have a good 50 yd. load, move the target back to 100 yds, and fire some groups. move up a few more 5 grain increments to determine if there is a more accurate load that shoots flatter at the 100 yd. distance. Most men who shoot .54 rifles are using 90 grains of FFg and a patched round ball of .530 diameter and a .015" prelubed patch.

There is a lot of misinformation out there( that's a nice way of telling you that people are lying to you!) about powders. You will be told that BP substitutes, like Pyrodex, the pellets, or Triple Seven, or some of the other substitute powders based on ascorbic acid forumlas are less fouling of the gun, easier to clean, or that you don't have to worry about cleaning the gun like you do with Black Powder! All of those representations are LIES! The subs are harder to light, absorb water and moisture faster, and corrode the barrels just as fast if not faster than BP. Many of the subs have to be compressed very hard to perform up to consistent expectations. Check the member services box up on top of the main page, at the bottom of the first section, for links to powder suppliers. There are several that will sell you powder and deliver it to your doorstep at reasonable prices, assuming you order several cans. The price you will pay at retail for the subs is often twice as much as you will pay for black powder.

5. Patch lube. Read through this forum and find several recipes for lube. Many start out using Wonderlube, a/k/a NL 1000, or Bore butter. Other used a combination lube and cleaning fluid like Hoppes Black powder solvent#13. They all work, but some work better in some ranges of temperatures than others. That is why there are so many home made recipes.

6.Something to carry powder into the woods, and to the range. You can use a cheap plastic funnel to pour the powder from the can into your powder measure at the range. And, you can measure powder charge out at home, and put them in film cannisters, like the plastic ones used to hole 35 mm film. There are similar containers you can pick up for next to nothing. You won't need a lot of them for a day's hunt. 5 should be more than enough.

7. Something to carry your patches and round ball in when going into the woods. I like a ball block, which is a piece of wook drilled and reamed out to hold 3-5 balls that have been patched and seated into the block. The block either is hung from your neck on a strap, or carried in a possibles bag. Again, you don't need to carry 50 round ball into the woods for a days hunt. Leave the extra balls in the factory box or bag at home, or in your car, while you are in the woods.

8. Short starter. Because of the make of gun you are shooting, you will need what is called a short starter to get the ball started down the muzzle of the barrel before you can run it down with your ramrod. You can make this, or buy one.

9. Cleaning patches. I like the 3 inch diameter flannel patches you can buy in bulk.

10. Ball pulling jag, cleaning jag, and patch pulling jag, with the proper threads to fit the ramrod you have.

11. a good, solid range rod, made of stainless steel, brass, or aircraft aluminum. This is needed in the event you forget to put powder in the barrel before loading a patched round ball. This is called " dry balling", and everyone who shoots BP does it sooner or later. And, usually more than once! Its only a matter of time before you join the club. You will find a lot of smiling faces staring back at you when youd do.

12. Possible bag to carry your stuff in the woods.

13. a Powder horn. You usually won't need a really big one, although they look very nice and very period correct. a Half a pound of powder is usually more than enough for a club shooting session, and you can always refill the powder horn from your stash of powder in the car. Most of us have range boxes we have made, or bought, to carry all the stuff we need to work on our guns. This can include properly fitted screw drivers, wrenches, needle nose pliers, etc.

14. You might want to invest in one of the CO2 devices to blow your ball and powder charge out the barrel, rather than trying to pull it out with a ball pulling jag.

15. I mentioned caps, but not how many. Buy then in lots of 1000 after you first decide which work best for your gun. You get a slightly better price, and that quantity will last you a very long time. You can also help out friends who run out. I also like to recommend that you buy some kind of CAPPING tool, which holds the caps in a container, and dispenses them in such a way that they are easily placed on the nipple before you shoot. Tedd cash sells several styles of cappers, from a straight line, to an oval shaped one, and to a tear dropped shaped one. I have the oval shaped capper and have never had any problems with it. It stays in a back pocket of my jeans at the range, and in a pocket in my possibles bag in the field.

That should get you on your way. You can use this list to compare what is being sold in those one stop shopping schemes you asked about. I doubt they measure up.
 
advice? well gotta go with rebel (gees!) but first thing you need to know and remember is ONE shot! so you need to know exactly where that gun will shoot @25-50-75-100 yds..for at least the deers sake!(And....you may just like this smoke and roundball thing!) get some (okay,my opinion!!!) 2ff goex, cci #11 caps,prelubed patches...(ah? but what thickness? .10-15 -20? ) i'd try .015's.. most cva's get by with them..gotta start somewhere..get some 530 or 535 round balls..hey like $7 fer a 100! get a powder measure,nipple wrench,cleanin patches...ole shirt will work..wipe her down load with 50-60 grains @25 yds and see what happens...and... let us know where ya live,one of us might be close,gees i can get ya started w/ patches,,got some, till ya figure what ya need.. hope this helps,,,and you'll be hooked soon!!!!!!!and you'll love it! good luck and let me know! RC
 
First off, I'd say avoid pellets. Measuring powder is no big deal and an adjustable powder measure is cheap. The most accurate loads are rarely the maximum load, and the pellets don't allow you to fine tune your load for best accuracy. They're also hard to ignite. The substitutes offer no advantage over real black powder. They're just as corrosive and they're harder to ignite and in most cases, harder to clean also.

There are some well thought out starter kits, so that wouldn't be a bad place to start. It's plenty easy to round up the pieces individually though. Your basic needs will be a way to carry powder, a powder measure, perhaps a short starter (you can make it yourself easily, if you choose). You'll also need caps, powder, lube, balls and patches or bullets (or heaven forbid, those accursed sabots).

You'll need cleaning gear, which is really just as simple as a rod and a proper fitting jag and patches. Cleaning is no major undertaking. Warm soapy water works fine.

Muzzleloaders take a lot of practice to become proficient with, as they shoot differently than a centerfire. If you're going to hunt with it, you will need to shoot regularly to learn the trajectory and maintain your shooting skills with the gun. They're amazingly accurate once you find the best load and get a feel for the gun. Hopefully you'll find it as much fun as we do and enjoy shooting it all year. Muzzleloaders are a true test of marksmanship as they require more discipline, and shooting them regularly will actually make you a better shot with your modern guns.

As for the best bullet to use for deer. Honestly, I'd say a patched round ball! I know it sounds counterintuitive and I didn't believe it for years either. While I would never lower myself to use a sabot, I hunted with lead conicals for many years. The round ball simply performs way beyond what its numbers say it should. They take deer very cleanly.
 
Stay away from Pyrodex. About 15 years ago when I first started I bought a pound of it at K-Mart. They had it on the shelf and I didnt know any better.I had nothing but problems with it. When I could get it to go off my cap lock sounded like a slow flint lock-I would hear the cap crack and then it seemed like a second later the main charge would go off, and that was if I was lucky. After an evening of hunting I went to shoot off the charge as it was the last day of the season. Snapped half a dozen caps and nothing! Went home and pulled the ball and charge and the pyrodex had turned to mud and this was a dry day. About a month later I stumbled across a can of Goex real black powder and man what a difference.

If I had to use a black powder sub I would use either American Pioneer Powder or Goex Pinnacle. I have had decent results on the range but in the end they are just a substitue and not the real thing.
Enjoy your smoke pole, you may have found a new hobby. Burning Black powder is highly addictive! :thumbsup:
Scott.
 
Ditto with about all everyone else has said. If you like building, are not imtimidated with new challenges, then put together a kit. There is nothing so satisfying as shooting something that you just built. And it is addictive! Most of the stuff you find that you need, you'll end up making yourself. This is a great place to see what and how others have come up with solutions to any problems you'll encounter.
Scott
 
Analog: As others have said, the pellets are for the In**** style of guns. They have a special ignitor charge attached to the end of them so a flame coming from the back end will set them off.
If you gun has a side drum with the nipple in it the flame will not get to this ignitor charge.
If your gun has a cast breech plug with the nipple screwed into it, the caps flame will have to travel so far it will cool down before reaching the pellet. Again, poor or no ignition will be the result.

As for your accessories the "kit" will have the basics but you will be money ahead if you just buy the things you really need.
The basic things you will want to have is:

A brass jag or button that is for a .54 cal barrel.

A nipple wrench to remove the nipple.

A powder measure which can measure 60-100 grains of powder.

#11 percussion caps

A box of .530 diameter roundballs.

Some .015-.018 thick shooting patches.
A bullet starter. (Looks like a ball with a short (1/4 inch long or so) and a 3-4 inch long rod coming out of it.

Bullet lube. May be factory or home made or even A Vegetable shorting like Crisco.

Some cleaning patches. Those made for a .45 work fine. Just don't get large patches like a 12-20 guage shotgun would use.

Powder. FFg or FFFg black powder if you can get it. Pyrodex RS if you can't.

As others have mentioned, you also need to practice with your rifle to determine where it is shooting. To get this practice, start with a powder load of about 60 grains. After getting a few groups, increase the load to 70 grains.
Continue to shoot groups with incresing powder loads up to about 90 grains. One of these loads will give the best accuracy.
I would start shooting at 25 yards just to see where the gun is hitting. Then do most of your shooting at 50 yards.
When you find the best load, do as the others have suggested and find out where it is going to hit at 50, 75 and 100 yards.

A .54 cal roundball is totally capable of bringing down an Elk so a deer out to 100 yards will be no problem provided you get a good solid hit in the vitals.

zonie :)

Something to carry the loose powder in.
 
Thanks for all the input folks. I love to shoot my rifles, I used to shoot highpower in the DCM at camp perry OH, so there may be a good chance I'll be shooting this more than I've alluded to. I hope I didn't come of as meaning its only used one time a year. I've shot dozens of deer, through firearm and bow seasons, and I understand the need for practice, indeed any bowhunter can tell you this. So this is a new area for me and I really appreciate the input and your detailed responses! Thanks again.
 
Stick around, these guys know their SH...er stuff. :grin: Beware, there is a high probability you will get addicted. :v
 
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