Smoothbore Loads

[woodsman1]

I have a Green Mountain barrel mounted on my TC .58 Big Bore. I says .62 cal, but mikes out at .59 cal at the muzzle, making it about a 23 gauge. LOL. I casted up some .600 balls of weelweights and lead. Had to beat the balls down with a mallet on top of 65 grains of 3f. No 2 shots were anywhere close at 50 yds. Found some of the thin T-shirt patches and they were all blown through. I was not a happy shooter.
Today I loaded 65 gr. 3f and put a 3/4 in. newspaper wad down lubed on the sides with borebutter, thumb started the bare .600 RB and pushed it on down easy with the Ramrod. Topped it off with a small wad of newspaper, to hold the ball. This time all shots were on a 12" X 12" piece of cardboard at 55 yds. I did try 85 gr. of 3f but the group seemed to open up more. I also tried 3 shots with .570 RB in thick patch. They stayed on the cardboard as well. Never did hit the 2" bullseye but figured this would be minute of deer or hog and with the big .600 RB any hit ought to slow em down so's I could get to em. Anybody got other idea's or recommendations I could try. Thanks, Bobby

 

[Hawken12]

hmmm,barrel mikes at .590.yet bareballs .600 ball.somethin don't add up .however ,suggest down a boresize on ball an work up a patch\ball combo to fit.
>570 + 10 thou patch = 590.good starting point

 

[woodsman1]

It took some effort to push the ball just past the muzzle, but about 1" down it became easy. Still some pressure was required, but went right on down. This might indicate some sort of slight choke. The .570 with the heavy patch material was the same way. Had to strike the ball with the butt of my knife to get it just past the muzzle where I could cut the material. It then went down pretty smooth. No short starter used. This patch material did not burn through either.

 

[roundball]

I have a Green Mountain barrel mounted on my TC .58 Big Bore. I says .62 cal, but mikes out at .59 cal at the muzzle

My GM .62cal smoothboress mic'ed .610" (instead of .620's) and when I called GM to question that, they said that's the diameter of their .62cal smoothies.
If your's truly only measures .590" I'd contact Kerry Smith at GM and send it back for rework under warranty...

 

[old ugly]

i used to use round ball from my 58 in my NSW 62 cal . used a thick patch and that gun was dead on every time . i would never go back to struggling with getting balls down the barrel .

 

[Joel/Calgary]

It took some effort to push the ball just past the muzzle, but about 1" down it became easy. Still some pressure was required, but went right on down. This might indicate some sort of slight choke. The .570 with the heavy patch material was the same way. Had to strike the ball with the butt of my knife to get it just past the muzzle where I could cut the material. It then went down pretty smooth. No short starter used. This patch material did not burn through either.

Most of the folks I've heard from shooting ball from a conventionally-choked barrel use their regular wadding for shot under the ball, whether they load the ball bare or lightly patched (to keep it centered and prevent possible leading). How familiar are you with front-stuffin' shotguns?

Was your shooting done offhand or from a rest?

Joel

 

[paulvallandigham]

If you have a bore diameter that small, you need to get a different ball, or talk to the manufacturer of the barrel/gun. Running a ball down oversized and bare is going to leave lots of streaks of lead in the barrel, and you are not going to get the accuracy you should from that Fowler.

Sealing the gas behind a PRB in a fowler is very important, because it has no grooves to allow the gas to escape around and NOT cut the lead ball! I found, using my chronograph, that using a proper OP wad, or a filler, like corn meal, between the powder and PRB increased velocity( a clear indicator that the gases were being sealed behind the PRB), and the Standard Deviation in Velocity (SDV) from shot to shot Dropped, indicating that I should expect the balls to strike closer to the same POI( Ie. a smaller group).

I use the same OP Wad that I use when shooting a shot load, when shooting PRB. It is just easier to carry and learn to use consistently. If you are shooting a Shotgun that has choke in the muzzle of the barrel(s), you will want to try using only Over Shot Cards- those thin shirtback cardboard wafers we use on top of shot loads, in place of the thicker OP Wad. The thin OS Card can be bent enough to fit through the choke, then turned around with your loading jag, and seated on the powder. Use 3-4 such OS cards in lieu of the OP wad.

I recommend punching an off-center hole in the cards( at home when you can do this to lots of cards watching TV) with an awl. This lets air pass through each card, to make it easier to load, and preserves the all- important edges of the cards.

Because turning the cards in the barrel, behind the choke, causes some damage to the two pivot points on the edges, I also recommend that you alternate the direction of the cards as you place them in the barrel, aligning the first card at 12/6 O'clock position, then the next a 9/3 o'clock, then back to 12/6 o'clock for the third, etc. This allows a good edge on a succeeding card to protect the load from any gas trying to slip past a damaged edge of a prior card. Use the off-center hole in each card to Point the position, so that each successive card blocks the hole in the prior card.

When the cards come out of the barrel, air will go through those holes, and separate the cards, one at a time, letting them fall to the ground quicker than an OP Wad, or Cushion wad normally does. I have shot a lot of 25 yard targets with a PRB out of my fowler, where the cushion wad has also put a second hold in my target!

Iron Jim Rackham, a member here, came up with the idea of only using OS cards to load his fowler, and published some before and after pictures of patterns he got in his Mike Brooks Fowler. Then, he also published some pictures of some Grouse he killed in upstate New York with the gun. So, while I have discussed this method for shotguns that have muzzle chokes( not jog chokes) as a way to solve the problem of loading through a choke, the same system works with a cylinder bore fowler or shotgun. HIs patterns show that he eliminated the " donut hole" in his patterns when he stopped using the cushion and OP wads, and used 4 OS cards instead, each with an off-center hole punched in them, and each aligned differently than the one before. If you click on his name in the membership list, I am sure you can go back through his posts and find all this, altho its been a couple of years, now. :thumbsup:

 

[robertdale]

if you are going to shoot deer or hogs why not use the .58 ca. barrel?
smooth bore for birds? just a ? as to the reason for the barrel swap. does the gmb have rear sights?
sound to me this is choked for shot. :hmm:

 

[woodsman1]

Well let me answer a few ?'s. This is my first smoothie. Yes it does have a rear sight as it is like a Renegade barrel, to fit the T.C. I wanted a smoothie, well cause I wanted one. I was going to mount it on my .50 cal Renegade, but when I found the .58 Big Bore, I put the barrel on it. The .58 barrel was very rusty and pitted; besides it has a single trigger. I was going to have it bored out and still may. (yes, i know, i could use the .50 cal for hogs and deer, but i am looking for a one gun type fix. i am hoping this will work iffin i can find the right combination of loading.)

Anyway, I have read and re-read post after post on this site as well as others as to how to load em. It does shoot shot pretty well at 25 to 30 yards. Opens up too far to be effective after that.

I was shooting off of a rest and was thinking that might be some of the problem. Recoil moving the barrel before the ball clears the muzzle. I took a final shot yesterday at a 1 gallon paint can at bout 30 yards, off hand. Dead center plum. Made me feel real proud of that shot. I did not swab at all between any of the shots. I don't know how some of you guys feel about Bore Butter, but I really like it. Keeps the fouling soft and its easy to clean after shooting.

I pre-made my own wads out of newspaper. Soaked NP in water overnite then stuffed it into 5/8" PVC pipe. Compressed it with a dowell and a mallet, then separated them into bout 3/4" wads; lubed the sides of the wads when dry with BB. Note: the wads went down pretty tight as well.

I will try the cards instead of the wads. Sure sounds less labor intensive. Thanks, to all and I am open to any more ideas. Bobby

 

[paulvallandigham]

Newspaper is not going to seal gases behind it uniformly, no matter how treated. You can use newspaper wads for shooting shot loads, because these guns are only good out to about 25-30 yds. But, if you want RB accuracy, you have to seal the bore for each shot.

You also have to Use a Cloth patch around the ball to protect the ball and bore from rubbing each other. Bare balls are going to leave lead streaks- have seen in it my shotgun, my revolvers, and in my modern guns, too. Pure lead is soft for a reason, but the down side is using lead bare is going to rub lead off in the bore. If you then don't use lead solvents and bore brushes to remove this lead between shots, along with cleaning out the powder residue, the bore has an uneven surface for the next shot, and MORE lead is removed from the next ball, more gas cutting occurs, and accuracy with each succeeding round gets worse.

The Good news is that the circumstances under which you will shoot RB out of a Smoothbore barrel are limited. There are separate shooting matches, of course, at Friendship for Smoothbores, designed to test your shooting ability, and the accuracy of your gun over many shots. But, outside hunting Wild Boar, or deer, elk, etc. shooting a RB out of a smoothbore barrel is rarely done at all in the field.

This is the chief reason why most shooters choose to own fowlers- designed to use with shot for upland game hunting, where there is a greater variety of game to be taken, and many more opportunities to use the gun in the field. For Deer Season, most of the fowlers can be made to shoot PRB accurately enough to take deer out to 70 yds. Considering that most deer are killed under 50 yds., that is good enough.

Your smooth rifle, on the other hand, because of the quality of the barrel, and its Octagon shape, Should be able to shoot tight groups out to 100 yds., That is, groups of 4-5 inches should be expected from such a gun. Some guns are capable of delivering groups that are half that size.

I suggest, as has someone else, that you begin " fixing " this by first making a call to Green Mountain barrels to find out what diameter bore you have and why its not what you thought you ordered? Then, by all means, ACTUALLY MEASURE the bore with calipers YOURSELF, to learn exactly what diameter bore you have. :thumbsup:

 

[woodsman1]

Thanks for the info. I will work on it this weekend. I am going to investigate the patched .570 RB's further. That may be the answer.

I miked the RB's after I casted them,.600". That is what I thought I needed since the barrel was marked .62 Cal. I set a ball on top of the barrel and it just sat there. I then miked the barrel and found out it was .590".

I bought the barrel from Cain's over a year ago for $160.00 including shipping. Not being made of money, I thought this would be the most economical way to have a smoothie.

This is the first time I have had to work on a RB load. It works as a shotgun fine to 25 or 30 yards. 65 gr 3f, newspaper wad lubed with Bore Butter, 1 oz of #6 shot, and topped with a small wad of newspaper.

I am not adverse to having a .590 smoothie. I just gotta figure out how to get the best out of it. I will call Green Mountain tomorrow and inform them of the tight barrel.

Thanks again for the information and your time. Bobby

 

[Joel/Calgary]

Bobby,

Since you had said it felt like it may be choked, it would likely be worthwhile to measure the bore further back from the muzzle, or at least to compare the bore further inside with the muzzle, to see if it is actually larger. If you have no way of doing this, a machine shop or gunsmith ought to be able to do this inexpensively. .590 is an unusual caliber, especially for a barrel marked ".62 caliber".

Joel

 

[Capt. Jas.]

Bobby,

, it would likely be worthwhile to measure the bore further back from the muzzle, or at least to compare the bore further inside with the muzzle, to see if it is actually larger.
Joel

This is a good practice as many barrels today are choked and many old barrels are flared at the muzzle.
Dedicated bore gauges are designed to be able to measure past the choke area on modern guns to be able to tell the differential for the choke in a particular barrel. It also allows for the ability to take measurements at various areas to determine consistency.
Many old guns that are "pre-choke" era have barrels that were designed to flare out inside the muzzle area to where it is larger than the actual bore size of the barrel. Some were relieved inside the breech area as well. The only way to get a good reading on both these old barrels and modern choked ones is to measure the actual bore size and that is located well past the muzzle area.

 

[flintlock75]

I have been seeing a trend lately with the bore sizes being smaller than advertised mostly on smoothbores. My NSW tradegun was listed as a .62 but the bore mikes at .610. a friend has a kentuky fowler that was sold as a .62 and has a bore that mikes .600. another is a french tulle with a bore of .615. all are from different makers. I have read this problem on the forum as well. quaulity control apears to be a universal problem.

 

[woodsman1]

Called Green Mountain today. Spoke with a very nice lady "Kerry". She advised me to send the barrel back and they would check it out for me. She said that the barrel should mike from .610 to .612. She said that they had no reamers in .590, so she did not know what was wrong.

Guess I will send it in next week and see what happens. Will let everyone know what happens when it returns. Thanks to all... Bobby