Smoothbore Musket or Fowler vs Shotgun

[Flint1]

Hello everyone,
I'm not sure how long actual "shotguns" have been around--I've heard of flintlock shotguns, and I believe it was a Scottish preacher named Forsyth who developed the percussion cap to aid him in duck hunting. Would shotguns as we now know them have been around during the F & I and Revolutionary periods? I've always believed fowlers and muskets would have been predominate then. I've also heard that smoothbore muskets and fowlers often were actually choked--is this true? The reason I ask is that I was wondering if smoothbore muskets and fowlers would be suitable for duck, goose, and turkey hunting, or would a modern hunter be better served by using a ML shotgun. I would think the old-time hunters would have used smoothbore muskets and fowlers for such hunting. Also, what is the difference between a smoothbore musket and a fowler? My belief is that a smoothbore musket is a military weapon, and a fowler is a civilian gun. If this is true, then I guess a French fusil and English trade gun would actually be fowlers. Thanks for any info.
Ron

 

[Russ T Frizzen]

The first dedicated birding gun is the fowler or fowling piece. In practice most any smooth bore firelock can be used for birding, but some are a bit heavy to tote around and swing--the military muskets for example. The trade guns and French fusils will make fine sporting guns. The true English fowling piece and the later shotguns are distinctive and elegant guns. For examples of the English and French guns click on these links: www.trackofthewolf.com or www.caywoodguns.com. Look in the guns for sale and under the kits heading. Try a google search for "manton" and you may find a few photos of later shotguns. I've never heard of the fowling pieces being choked, but it isn't impossible. The old ones were great experimenters.

 

[CoyoteJoe]

I agree with Russ T and would add, I seem to recall that choke boring came into use about the time breechloaders were pushing ML out of the market. I believe a market hunter named Fred Kimbal (sp?) is generally credited with the invention or discovery of choked bores. Another guy named Roper developed a choke devise that screwed onto the muzzle like a polychoke.
I don't know when or where fowling pieces came to be called shotguns, early percussion era I guess.
The flint fowlers are purely beautiful things to behold but they are totally outclassed by the choke bored percussion double for actual hunting. :imo:

 

[CrackStock]

<<<I believe it was a Scottish preacher named Forsyth who developed the percussion cap to aid him in duck hunting.>>>

The Rev A J Forsyth used fulminate of mercury dabbed on a makeshift nipple from a container known as a scent bottle due to its resemblance to a perfume bottle to fire a fowler. He is the person who then obtained a patent upon the particular process that he used to make this work. It was not a very good system as one would be carrying about a liquid bottle of a percussion sensitive explosive and dribbleing out a rough amount as needed. Yes, percussion, but not a cap as we know it.

Artist and sign painter Joshua Shaw invented the copper cupped percussion cap which used a paste version of the substance which could be premeasured and was far safer to carry. He hid his secret until he moved to the US, but was denied a patent as he was a foreign national in the US.

<<<what is the difference between a smoothbore musket and a fowler?>>>

Usually, a musket will have special features such as a sling, and a means of attaching a stabbing weapon so as to have a pole arm. It will often have a thicker stock and larger lock with a stouter action to the spring. There are often provisions for easy take-down as in the barrel lokcing bands of the Charleville or features to facilitate the manual of arms as in the swell of the Bess or the lower barrel band of the Charleville. They are generally of larger bore and are made to shoot medium to heavy charges of a ball and/or larger shot. Often what people think of as the forward site was really a bayonet lug. These were designed for dense volley fire. This would go to your question on choking. They did not go to that expense on muskets.

In contrast, fowlers are often light pieces which are formed to swing through a bird in flight. While there was rarely, if ever a rear sight, the guns were designed to be pretty accurate through instinctive shooting rather than precision shooting.

The trade guns were a general purpose gun that often had some features of either, but had more similarities with the fowlers. They were often intended for procuring of food with some small potential military use as an after thought. Some have decent pointing capabilities and others not so well.

<<<The reason I ask is that I was wondering if smoothbore muskets and fowlers would be suitable for duck, goose, and turkey hunting>>>

Muskets are often left in arsenal bright finish. This is not a helpful finish for hunting. They are also heavy and not as accurate for some hunting situations, although I know some people who have overcome these deficits to successfully hunt.

<<< or would a modern hunter be better served by using a ML shotgun.>>>

You should decide what you want from this sport and the use the gun that best fits this desire. I bought a Tulle to hunt because I lived in an area with a strong French influence and it was part of the tradition. I also have a Bess because I wanted to participate in Rev War activities. I would not try to hunt with the bright and not so brown Bess.

Of course, reproductions of later vintage shotguns are available which use the replacement to the old fulminate of mercury cap. There are late English shotguns that will do the job more comfortably and even modern stocked shotguns if you are not interested in period correct designs.

You need to figure out what your goals are and then move toward them.

YMHS,
CrackStock

 

[RussB]

Good post Crackshot! :thumbsup: Well written and easy to read.

Russ

 

[Gary]

Good post Crackshot. I didn't know Joshua Shaw was a sign painter. Y'learn sumthin new every day. :master:

 

[musketman]

Artist and sign painter Joshua Shaw invented the copper cupped percussion cap which used a paste version of the substance which could be premeasured and was far safer to carry. He hid his secret until he moved to the US, but was denied a patent as he was a foreign national in the US.

Here is one of Joshua Shaw's paintings, hmmm, wonder if the Indian is using a percussion musket???

Reedy River Massacre, 1838 Oil on canvas, by: Joshua Shaw

 

[robinghewitt]

I believe it was a Scottish preacher named Forsyth who developed the percussion cap to aid him in duck hunting.

Forsythe never actually invented the percussion cap, his lock had a container of detonating pellets and deposited a fresh one under the firing pin when you gave it a twist. Many claimed to have invented the cap including Manton and Egg, no-one really knows who done it. There were lots of odd looking locks invented while people tried to get around Forsythes most inconvenient of patents.

William Rochester Pape got the UK patent for choke boring, (a lucky inclusion in another patent), but Hawker mentions a strange kind of choke that he presumably got from Joe Manton. His choke goes the wrong way and he says a gun won't shoot well without it. Did he get it wrong and Manton was actually putting a few thou of choke on ML shotguns way back when? Another good question ::

 

the SXS seems to really taken hold around 1770-80 forward with the strongest influences and developments happening up to 1840 this is most commonly known as the golden age for the sxs .
if you do a search for Manton . Mortimer. Durs egg and Richards you will find a lot of info on this time and these master gunsmiths .

its my understanding that the during this time wing hunting evolved . prior to this i believe the fowling game was more of what we call sloosing today or more of a stock and surprise jumping birds . the fowlers and muskets where great for this .
as true wing shooting came about "and if you have ever tried it " swinging even a nice English fowler can be some what slow and its easy to fall behind the bird . this caused an evolution to shorter barrels and great improvements in the locks and lock speeds . items like rolling frizzens, water proof locks, flash hole liners just to name a few came about because of this change in hunting tactics.

chokes other then jug choking had not came about as there IMO wasn

 

[Dave K]

I bird hunt with both flint and perc. SxS's. Both are orginal guns. The flint was made about 1790-1810 and the perc. gun was made about 1850+or-. I can't say there is a clear cut advantage on shooting birds with one or the other. Both are cyl. bored and the flint is a 20ga. the perc. is a 12ga.As a hunter though, that also has rifles, I can't imagine only having the potential for one shot. Doubles with a Ml'ing shotgun is way to cool! I am sure chokes would be an advantage, but more important is to go pattern the gun and develope loads with you have. :m2c: