smoothbore vs. fowler?

[pargent]

Just a couple of quickies for you Spence.
The minute of March 1672 (HBC) includes the phrase that is to Say, 200 fowleing pieces & 400 powder hornes.
The Standard of trade for 1748 on the ledger sheet lists Guns,4 foot , 3 1/2 foot , 3 foot .

 

[George]

Thanks, 1601phill. A good one for the file.

Spence

 

[Grandpa Ron]

Well as you can see from the many posts, we could start an encyclopedia dedicated to new and old gun terms and slang and never complete it.

Language continually evolves, for better or worse, so even if we agreed on a description the next generation would change it.

I believe the best answer so far was that a “fowler” is a subset of a group of guns classified as smoothbores.

I believe the linguist among us would be correct in pointing out that grammatically a “fowler” is one who shoots a fowling piece, just as a “flinter” is one who shoots a flintlock firearm.

But as they say; a rose by any other name, would still smell as sweet; so no matter what you call it smoothbores are fun to shoot. :grin:

 

[Captjoel]

As our old sayings continue from generation to generation, the original meanings behind them can sometimes take on totally new twists. Kind of reminds me of an old grade school exersize performed way back when. The teacher would whisper a short story to little "Johnny" that she had written down. Johnny passed the story on to the next student's ear and it continued being whispered through the whole class. The last student then wrote down the story as it was told and it was compared to the teachers version. It became a totally new tale. History has a way of doing this same sort of thing as time and new ears hear about it. I do not know why we Americans tend to catagorize the things we do with who we are. I think it might go back a long time. As I'm sure many of you have heard about the arguments put forth regarding the term Jaeger used here to describe the germanic short rifle. Where in Europe it refers to the hunter who uses it. It just has to be an American thing. We ARE what we eat....We ARE what we shoot.....We ARE what we do. I myself have even been called an old fowler after a night of beer, beans, and brats, go figure! :idunno:

 

[satx78247]

To ALL,

Let me truly "toss the cat among the pigeons": My "brother of the heart" has a .66caliber "smoothbore rifle" from "The Late Unpleasantness", that is so inventoried/described, including serial number, by a Mass State Militia unit.
That long-gun is evidently a .58caliber SA rifled musket that was "bored out for foraging", according to the data that he received with the "smoothbore rifle", when "little brother" bought it from a museum.

yours, satx

 

[Grandpa Ron]

Satx,

As the say, “You got to love it”. People did what they did and could have cared less what was the norm.

Imagine the confusion 200 years from now when they talk about i-phones, i-pods, i-pads, notebooks, nooks and etc. :hmm:

 

[satx78247]

Grandpa Ron,

VERY TRUE!

On a slightly different subject, WHAT do you suppose that, in 4013AD, that archeologists will think that venues like COWBOY STADIUM, UNION STATION, MALL OF THE AMERICAS, THE DC BELTWAY and/or THE CRYSTAL CATHEDRAL were used for, should they unearth the remains of those structures????
("Human sacrifices", perhaps?)

yours, satx :rotf:

 

[lonehorseman]

A very interesting topic, but while reading through all the posts I noticed we lost the OP back in May. He probably thought, "Oh Lord, what have I started?"

 

[satx78247]

lonehorseman,

Probably so.
(CHUCKLE.)

yours, satx

 

[jfgearing]

The terminology in use in the 1700's was all over the place, which is one of the reasons Samuel Johnson put together his famous dictionary...to try and standardize things. In his 1768 edition he says a fowling piece is a gun used to hunt birds, and that a musket is a hand gun used by soldiers. A pistol is defined as a small hand gun used by soldiers. Of course that was England, not necessarily the way things were termed here. In November 1756 Sir William Johnson of NY (head of the Indian Dept) ordered the following:
400, Neat Fowling pieces Barrels 4 Feet Long Substantíal Stocks
400, d°. a better kind distinguish'd as above.
200, d°. 3 Feet Barrell for Boys. d°. Wilson Maker

He also ordered tons of shot, 8 tons of lead bars, and "100, doz". of BuIIet Molds for the before Mention'd Arms". Papers of Sir William Johnson, Vol. 2, p. 898.

This leads me to think that these guns for the Indians would have been more lightly constructed than military muskets and would have had no provision for bayonets. While a fowling piece is perhaps "optimized" for shot, it seems to me that the inclusion of bar lead and 1200 bullet molds means that Johnson and the Iroquois intended at least some of these fowling pieces to shoot round balls....at the French and their Indian allies...F&I war going on at the time and all....and SWJ in charge of the Indian units.

 

[pargent]

The British GOV. purchased large amounts of Trade Guns ( not trade guns as you would think now days but muskets made by the gun trade for sale to private companies etc hence the term trade gun ) it was these that were issued to the Military dept. commanders for issue to their allies .

 

[Grandpa Ron]

I suppose it is a matter of time and place but by the middle 1700’s or so, what we now, for convenience, refer to as the French type C and D trade guns and the English type G trade gun were popular. Typically .58 cal./ 26 bore or there about.

Hudson’s Bay Company traders frequently mention that the larger bored (12 ga.) heavier guns were not well liked by native populous and had to be sold at a discount.

But history is history and contemporary language lumps, trade gun, fowler, smooth bore, fusil etc. into one lumped group. Kind of like saying “I drive a truck” instead of “I drive an Ford F-150 pick-up”. The details come later if needed.

 

[pargent]

My above post was only in relation to the issue of guns to Indians (allies ) in times of strife .

 

[Greebe]

So what is a TVM Fowler called then if it is not a Fowler?

This whole conversation makes me think about how people call someone who welds a welder, when in fact he would be called a weldor. A welder is a piece of equipment not an operator.

 

[pargent]

Where is your head at ?
Smoothbore - generic term to cover a broad range of guns eg those with a smoothbore.
Fowler -A person who keeps or works with fowles (chickens) / a slang term used to describe a smoothbore sporting gun used in hunting birds .
Fowling piece - A smoothbore sporting gun used to hunt birds .
Trade gun - A gun built to trade with Indians for furs etc.
A tad confusing for some because we are using a mix of old 18th ctry English and colonial American with a bit of addhock modern jargon thrown into the mix , it does get easier once one gets used to the lingo
Trade gun - A gun build by the Gun Trade to meet specific needs of a customer eg EIC musket .