Soft Round balls versus hardened round balls

[bud in pa]

I am about to start casting balls for my 20 ga. I am debating whether to harden them or not. I prefer a pass through shot which gives 2 holes to bleed out from. I will be using a .595 ball and see no need for expansion. Am I on the right track? :hmm:

 

[Skychief]

It'll be a good sized hole Bud. My prediction is two holes no matter the lead used, soft or hardened.

Have fun, Skychief.

 

[bud in pa]

The other day I ran into a black bear in the back yard as house I was leaving the house. This guy was rather large, you could just about tell he had ears, well over 400 pounds. Normal the woods. ly when you holler at these guys they swap ends and take off like a scalded cat. This one looked at me like I was annoying him. We faced off for about 3 or 4 minutes before he casually walked off into the woods. this got me thinking God forbid if II should have a problem with one of these cantankerous creatures I want all of the penetration that I can get.This isn't the first time I've had this unplesant experience.

 

[coloradoclyde]

Two words............

Ricochet potential.

 

[Britsmoothy]

Two holes help tracking.
A flattened ball cuts bleeders.

B.

 

[Eric Krewson]

You don't always get a pass through even with a heavy ball/load combination.

I shot this deer high in the shoulder with a .690 patched ball pushed by 100gr of 1F, I didn't get a pass through. It took another shot to the neck while he was on the ground to finish him off.

 

[BrownBear]

I am about to start casting balls for my 20 ga. I am debating whether to harden them or not. I prefer a pass through shot which gives 2 holes to bleed out from. I will be using a .595 ball and see no need for expansion. Am I on the right track? :hmm:

I've clanked quite a few deer with both, and buds with large families who still shoot moose and elk have experience with both on such large animals.

My experience and theirs kinda runs along a theme. Large animal or small, a soft ball will expand if velocities are high enough, and especially if they strike significant bone. Let the velocity drop, whether due to distance or milder load, and even soft lead isn't likely to expand much if at all.

My buds clanking elk, and especially moose, are pretty uniform in preferring hardened balls. That's cuzz they're using more powder for shots that are often close and at odd angles requiring lots of penetration. Soft balls just don't consistently get all the way through, especially if large bones are encountered.

But if you're shooting deer? I'd be surprised if you didn't get full penetration with soft .595 balls about 99% of the time. I've only recovered a single ball from deer, a face-on neck shot right in the white throat patch at a little over 50 yards using a .530 pure lead ball launched on top of 90 grains of 3f. It penetrated the spine completely and came to rest under the hide on the back of the neck. Didn't get full penetration, but I certainly didn't need it with that shot. Here's the photo:


Bottom line for me is shooting. If pure lead is in short supply at any moment in time, I don't sweat it in guns that will shoot alloy well (usually requires a change in patch thickness for best accuracy). The biggest issue is storing the alloy balls in labeled containers so I know to adjust patch thickness when I use them. My memory is more prone to failure than hard or soft balls!

 

[bud in pa]

For deer I normally carry paper cartridges, since I can get a fairly fast second shot if needed. I have never found a need for a hardened ball for deer, as a 50 yard shot is about the max to even see a deer. For some reason the stare down that I had with that bear the other day made me think of penetration. The Largest bear taken in my neighborhood according to the game dep't. was over 830 pounds, and I only have 1 shot.

 

[SDSmlf]

Always best to plan for the worst and hope for the best. If there is chance you will need penetration, something harder than pure lead makes sense. Or wait for that perfect broadside shot as some would suggest..... although that wouldn’t be my choice.

 

[azmntman]

Always best to plan for the worst and hope for the best. If there is chance you will need penetration, something harder than pure lead makes sense. Or wait for that perfect broadside shot as some would suggest..... although that wouldn’t be my choice.

neither would a black powder rifle :shocked2: 830 lbs I'm carrying a guide gun by marlin full of 45-70 soft points. Better to be fined for discharging in city limits than remembered as being brave for shooting and then fumbling with a bayonet as the bear has his way :surrender:

 

[BrownBear]

This harks back to a previous thread far in the past concerning double ball loads as described here and there, and even in the TC manuals as I recall. The discussion was never resolved (and never will be, of course!), but it led me to do some experimenting.

I tried double ball loads in both my 54 and 58 caliber rifles, getting amazingly good accuracy at 50 yards. Since I'm not running my usual powder charges at the top end of the scale, I have no qualms that pressures are too high when I do so.

Living over 30 miles from town right in the thick of brown bear/grizzly country I chance encounters with them every time I head into the hills. Heck, we had one in the yard yesterday evening.

My routine has become one of hunting as usual with a single ball, but seating a second patched ball on to of it when the bear sign gets too fresh. I feel better doing it, and I don't feel the need to justify it for anyone else. At the very least, seating the second ball beforehand is lots quicker and lots more relaxed than doing it after firing a shot and feeling you need a second ball right now! :hatsoff:

 

[nhmoose]

I have always used wheel weights for my smoothbores cause it let me save the pure for my rifles. Wheel weights when water dropped are quite hard.

 

[SDSmlf]

Worst case scenario for guide and an archery hunter that encountered two bears. Appears they only had one pistol the hunter tossed to the guide, who unfortunately didn’t make it out.
https://www.jhnewsandguide.com/this_just_in/article_fb78dcc0-94a9-5dab-804d-23991c46f90c.html

 

[Eterry]

Bud, I believe I would combine the ideas of Brownbear and yourself. If I was hunting with a smoothbore where a big bear was lurking I would certainly want all the penetration from a wheelweight ball. And a 2nd ball rammed home if bear sign appear would be a comfort.

Like NHmoose I have water quenched WW's many times for hot pistol loads and they get REALLY hard, IIRC about as hard as Lyman #2. I folded a hand towel and placed it in a 5 gal bucket half full of water, then dropped my SWC's from the mold into the water.


A hardened ball loaded pretty hot wont make any difference to a deer, but will on ole smokey!

 

[azmntman]

Worst case scenario for guide and an archery hunter that encountered two bears. Appears they only had one pistol the hunter tossed to the guide, who unfortunately didn’t make it out.

https://www.jhnewsandguide.com/thi...dcc0-94a9-5dab-804d-23991c46f90c.html[/quote]

Wonder if bear spray vs the pistol would have made all the difference in the world. I have heard there are few if any fatalities once spray has been deployed?

 

[BillinOregon]

Bud, I'm kinda with the majority here -- soft for deer, harder for anything larger, including Mr. Round Ears. A three-minute stare down with a blackie is not a good omen.

 

[BrownBear]

Worst case scenario for guide and an archery hunter that encountered two bears. Appears they only had one pistol the hunter tossed to the guide, who unfortunately didn’t make it out.
https://www.jhnewsandguide.com/thi...dcc0-94a9-5dab-804d-23991c46f90c.html[/quote]

Throw your gun to the guide and run for help?

Really? REALLY?????? :bull:

Nice to have the guy's name. He need not apply for membership in our hunting group. :barf:

 

[Loyalist Dave]

Two words............

Ricochet potential.

:haha:

Not for a lead alloy. I've seen .45 ACP jacketed ball ricochet off of a folding table edge which had aluminum sides, but unless he's shooting at smooth and flat quarts, granite, or concrete, he's got a pretty good chance at not having a problem.

LD

 

[BrownBear]

Two words............

Ricochet potential.

:haha:

Not for a lead alloy. I've seen .45 ACP jacketed ball ricochet off of a folding table edge which had aluminum sides, but unless he's shooting at smooth and flat quarts, granite, or concrete, he's got a pretty good chance at not having a problem.

LD

Guys shooting that round at our local indoor range got tired of setting up plates for falling plate practice. So they made up a rack with steel plates that wouldn't fall. Just spray paint white between shooters, so you could track hits.

Looked great on paper. But there were so many rebounds whistling past shooters and hitting the viewing windows behind them, we had to ban the setup. No one was hurt bad, but one shooter ended up with a great big goose egg right between his eyes.

 

[SDSmlf]

When I was shooting SASS years ago remember getting getting hit with rebounds more than once. Pure lead bullets, low velocity loads, flattened out and coming back at virtually no velocity, but still coming back. Came down to rigidly and angle of the steel target. Also remember as a kid watching 22s skipping across water. Pure lead again.

Comes down to surface and angle it is hit at.