Spent patch question

[brew]

I have been shooting my 62 cal trade gun and I believe my patches may not be thick enough. I remember reading in one of the past muzzleloader mags that you can tell if you are getting good seal with your path by examining the spent patch. What should I be looking for? What evidence on the patch would tell me if I am getting a tight seal or if I am getting blow by?
I appreciate any advise.

 

[rafterob]

A tight seal will exhibit a nice round circle of powder burn, Blow by will show streaks outside of the circle or even burnt edges of the patch.

 

[paulvallandigham]

A proper patch thickness will show a almost black or brown ring where the sides of the patch are pressed against the bore. Then center will be lightly scorched at best, and often will lood white. The edges of the patch will be frayed because they are whipped back when the ball leaves the muzzle of your gun.

If your patch is too thin, it can show black streaks from the ring to the edges, it can be torn, and it can also have burn holes in it. If you aren't useing enough patch lube, expect to see evidence of burning in the center as well as on the edges.

In a smoothbore, the patch is there to help seal the area between the outside diameter of the lead ball, and the inside of the barrel, or " bore ". The lube helps with this seal by filling the gaps in the fabric caused by the weave. The lube also lubricates the barrel to reduce friction, heat, and to soften the BP residue that follows behind the PRB as it exits the barrel. This softening helps in cleaning the gun, and loading the next PRB.

Failure to use a thick enough patch allows gases to " Blow- by " the patch, and actually cut the patch and ball , causing the ball to fly away from the POA. Make a habit of always checking your patches, no matter how many times you have checked them before, to see if something is going wrong, and to assure yourself that all is right.

I recommend lubing the barrel with a lube soaked cleaning patch as you push the PRB down the barrel. Just put the lubed patch between the PRB and your jag, and push all of them down the barrel. When you retract your RR, the patch with the lube will come back out with the jag, and lube the barrel again, so that you are sure that the barrel is protected from rusting if it will be some time before you fire the shot, and that there will be sufficient lube in the barrel to feed the patch material as the PRB is exiting the barrel. That helps in sealing the bore and preventing gas blow-by. I also find that it gives a slight increase in velocity, but lowers the SDV substantially. A lower SDV is conducive to smaller groups.

If you are going to shoot FFFg BP, or use any of the substitute powders, I recommend that you also use an OP wad, or some kind of filler between the powder and the PRB. Those powders burn much hotter, and a patch that is .010 or thinner will more often than not burn in front of them, no matter what kind of lube is used. The OP wad, or using a filler of corn meal, or wasp nest, will protect the Patch from the hot temperatures, and give better results.

 

[Stumpkiller]

If you can hold it up to the light and see through it, it may be too thin or you have rough spots in the bore (or sharp lands - not necessarily a bad thing). If your holes are tightly grouped in the target, you may not want to change anything. Patches are a diagnostic tool. If the rifle ain't sick, don't look for trouble.

In the first image only the 0.010" patch had problems. Some blow-by and accuracy suffered . . . though not horribly.

Three good patches

 

[paulvallandigham]

Stumpy: He was trying to find out how to diagnose problems with his smootbore. They don't have sharp lands and grooves! :surrender: :rotf:

The first three wads, showing the different thicknesses and what they do for sealing the bore, are instructive, altho fired out of a rifle. The first one(.010") looks like his patches are described, with a thick black ring, and streaks going out from the annular ring. The .015" patch shows mostly a brown stain, and very little streaks, and those probably only because of the grooves. The .018" patch shows a very light brown circle, no streaks, no tears, no light coming through, and a clear center, showing no scorching.

The " three good patches " appear to have been shot out of a smoothbore, and they show only the brown ring, and clear centers. Excellent examples of the right patch thickness, and, of course, the right lube, even if you did make it yourself! :rotf Readers can get the recipe for Stumpy's Moose milk, and Moose snot from the data listed at the top of the index page to this forum.)

I think the small group shows the proof of the pudding, with those patches, too. If a picture is worth a thousand words, these are worth 5,000. Thanks for putting those up here.

 

[Stumpkiller]

Hmmm. The danger of clicking on the posts in "Recent Topics". You never know where it will take you. Like eating mushrooms in Wonderland.

Still, a blown patch is a blown patch.

 

[brew]

What do you make of these patches. I shot them yesterday.

 

[paulvallandigham]

From left to right, as we look at the picture, you can see holes in the first one. The second one shows streaks from the dark ring, which is too dark. That indicates the patch is probably too thin. The third one is torn, indicating too thin a patch. The fourth one looks like it is also too thin. Without knowing what lube you used, and how and when it was distributed throughout the fabric, the holes, tears, the dark ring, all tell us that you need to use a thicker patch. Compare these to those posted above by Stumpy. The ones he shot using the .010" patch seem to look the closest in color and condition as your four patches do. You want to use at least a .015, and you want to try the .018" patching to see if you get as good results as Stumpy does in his gun. Buy a sample of patches from Dixie or Track of the Wolf before ordering any cloth in quantity.

Buy Dutch Schoultz's Accuracy system. Its the best $15.00 Christmas Present you can give yourself, and will teach you how to use your patches to diagnose accuracy problems in your gun, and then how to correct them.
[url] http://www.blackpowderrifleaccuracy.com[/url]/

 

[trent/OH]

My smoothbore is a 75 caliber Brown Bess, and I'm not yet satisfied with it's accuracy (a relative term when discussing Bess') so I'll probably be adjusting her diet. However, I am using .025 cotton denim, and just keep picking them up and using them time and again. After the first firing though, don't spit lube them. Yuck!

 

[Stumpkiller]

2 & 4 aren't so bad, but 1 & 3 have been drug through a knot hole. Those patches failed either because the bore is rough (you'll feel that whan loading), the muzzle is sharp, the lube is insufficient, or, more likely, they are too thin for the ball to bore match-up. Thicker patch material (it is cotton or a 100% natural fiber?) or more or a different lube. But judging from #3 no amount of lube will help that unless you're tearing it on loading.

Load and pull an unfired ball and examine the patch. Should be 100% intact and show no wear when held up to the sky.

 

[brew]

I knew I went to the right place for answers.
'The Muzzle Doctors". You guys are a wealth of information. I appreciate your insight and will certainly try your suggestions.

All of you mentioned lube being a possible problem.
What should I try? I am currently using pre-lubed wonder patches that are apparently to thin.(.015)

I believe I ordered some thicker patches from The Possible Shop which are supposed to arrive today. I will let you know the results.

 

[Steve Blancard]

( Readers can get the recipe for Stumpy's Moose milk, and Moose snot from the data listed at the top of the index page to this forum.) [/quote

Could you lead me by the hand or drop beard crumbs? I can't find it. :redface:

 

[bwhoffman]

What do you make of these patches. I shot them yesterday.

I might add in...Too soft a material. What are you using for these patches?

I have used 100% cotton from shirts, nite gowns,flannel sheets ect,all measuring .015 or better. they shoot fine and my groups testify to that but no way in hades are you going to use the patch again.
I am going to a tighter weave like #40 drill cloth in my rifles and going to try cotton denim in the trade gun... .018 seems a tad loose, havesome denim thats .021, but these guys foul up quicker,so time and testing will tell!

 

[Stumpkiller]

Could you lead me by the hand or drop beard crumbs? I can't find it.

Here you go: the whole Moose line



S t u m p k i l l e r’ s
MOOSE JUICE
All Weather Enriched
Blackpowder Solvent & Body Wash

A general purpose blackpowder solvent and liquid patch lube. Shake well before using. Can be allowed to dry on dipped patching for a dry lube dry flat on waxed paper & dip twice for best saturation). Add ingredients in the following order and shake well after each is added.

Isopropyl Alcohol (91%) 8 oz.
Castor Oil 3 oz.
Murphys Oil Soap 1 oz.
Witch Hazel 4 oz.
Water (non-chlorinated) 16 oz.


S t u m p k i l l e r’ s
MOOSE SPIT
All Weather Antiseptic
M/L Cleaner & Hygiene Spray

Use as you would Windex or 409 Spray Cleaner. A cleaner for when you can’t get to hot, soapy water.

Water (non-chlorinated) 5 cups
Ammonia ½ cup
Isopropyl Alcohol 1 cup
Murphy’s Oil Soap 2 tbsp.


S t u m p k i l l e r’ s
MOOSE SNOT
All Weather Prophylactic
Patch Lube & Sensual Rub

A premium multi-shot between wiping (10+) patch lube stable over a wide temperature range.
SPECIFICALLY designed for use of patched round balls in a loading block

Beeswax 2 oz.
Castor Oil 8 oz.
Murphy’s Oil Soap 1 oz.


Heat beeswax in a soup can set a pot of water. ( A double-boiler. I keep my beeswax in a one pound coffee can and measure out what I need by melting it and pouring it into measuring cups). Add just enough water to the pot so that the inner can does not begin to float (should be just short of the lube level in the can). Heat the water to a low boil. In a separate can, add the castor oil and Murphy's oil soap (cold). Once the beeswax is melted, swap the castor oil can in the pot of water for the beeswax. Add the beeswax to the oils. It will clump up. Stir with an ice tea spoon as the mixture heats up. When it fully melts there will often be a scum that floats to the top and just won't mix in. Be patient. DO NOT COOK THE MIXTURE. Once the solids are dissolved there is no need to heat further. Skim the scum off. Remove the mix from the heat and wipe the water off the outside (so it won't drip into the container when you pour it out). FINAL TOP SECRET STEP: Add a generous teaspoon of Murphy’s Oil Soap and stir vigorously. This last step makes the lube frothy, smooth and more smearable - really adds to the appearance; though it doesn't seem to matter to the function of the lube. Clamp the can in the jaws of a vice-grip pliers and pour into the waiting tins. Allow to cool a half hour.

Note: it if is a hinged tin - line the edge that has the hinges with a strip of aluminum foil so it doesn't ooze out before it cools.


These recipes are intended for patch lubrication and black powder residue solvent purposes only. They possess some protective properties but should not be relied on as the sole method of metal protection. A penetrating oil or rust preventative product, such as Birchwood Casey Sheath, is highly recommended for storage between shooting.



S t u m p k i l l e r’ s
MOOSE MARROW
All Weather Moisturizing
Conical Lube & Laxative

A denser lube for adhering in the grooves of conical bullets


Beeswax 3 oz.
Castor Oil 9 oz.
Murphy's Oil Soap 1 oz.
Witch Hazel 1 oz.

 

[Steve Blancard]

Thanks Stumpy!

 

[11th corps]

FWIW
I cured my smoking patch problem by
using liberal amounts of bore butter on the patch-
placing a wad between the powder charge and the ball/patch

 

[brew]

I knew I went to the right place for answers.
'The Muzzle Doctors". You guys are a wealth of information. I appreciate your insight and will certainly try your suggestions.

All of you mentioned lube being a possible problem.
What should I try? I am currently using pre-lubed wonder patches that are apparently to thin.(.015)

I believe I ordered some thicker patches from The Possible Shop which are supposed to arrive today. I will let you know the results.

Well my new patches did arrive today and I had a chance to blast off a few rounds. The patches in the photo are the new.020 patches and they look to be doing a much better job than the .015's in the previous photo which I submitted earlier this week. Take a look and let me know what you think. Oh, and by the way, my accuracy improved tremendously. I grouped much better and hit the 4 inch black bull 2 out of the five shots. I cant wait to try the new lube which is in route.
I am now feeling better about heading to PA to take a deer with Ole smoothie 62

 

[Stumpkiller]

Looking much better now. #2 looks possibly a little "tired" but the accuracy is the main thing.

 

[brew]

Check out the grouping I am now getting. This was at 40 yards. I am very pleased and great full for your help. I can now go to PA with confidence. I will let you know how I do.
Thanks again,

 

[paulvallandigham]

Try putting Fiber Wads under the PRB. Sometimes referred to as OP wads, they seal the bore better from the expanding gases, and protect your lubed patches.

I also suggest you shoot your gun with lubing your barrel AFTER seating the PRB on the powder. The added lube " feeds " the lube in the patch, protecting it further, and guaranteeing a slick surface for the PRB to travel over going out the barrel. The grease melts, or burns, ( there is a dispute about which happens) and helps keep the residue left in the barrel soft. The lube eventually does seem to fill pores in the steel of the barrel, and the bore becomes slicker feeing even when loading the PRB.