Spiller & Burr Revolver

[duelist1954]

It has been a tough Winter, but I finally got back out to the range to test the Spiller & Burr replica for my black powder column in "Guns of the Old West" magazine.

Here's a video of the session, and a picture for your enjoyment.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zVyPTdHcCDI

 

[CKeshen]

Very good video. Thanks for posting. I have 2 Remington repros - an Uberti in .36 and a Pietta in .44. Interesting to see a variation on what I consider to be an already great design.

 

[rodwha]

I've always been interested in this pistol, but hesitant due to the brass frame. Is the 18 grn charge of 3F considered hot for this pistol? Would it last a long time using that charge, but of something like Swiss or Olde E instead?

18 grns of 3F obviously didn't fill the chamber as a wad was pushed well inside. I suppose this means the cylinder is a little bigger than a Colt Pocket model as I understand 20 grns about fills the chamber to the rim? The cylinder certainly looked smaller next to the Remington.

How does the grip size compare to the Remington?

Pietta's site states it weighs 1.1 kg vs 1.25 kg for a Remington '58, though their numbers cannot be very accurate as it says that for just about every model, .36/.44 cal and all the barrel lengths. It's obvious the Spiller & Burr is smaller than the Remington.

Watching the video it didn't seem there were cap jamming problems, although it did seem as though one spent cap was troublesome in some capacity.

Dixie Gun Works states the chambers are .367" in diameter. Is there enough meat between the chambers to ream it larger? And what is the bore size?

Is the frame proud around the loading window as the Pietta Remington is to where it would give some problems for loading conicals (and even balls to a degree)? It looks nice and open.

 

[duelist1954]

You can't load conicals because the bullet rammer is too long to accommodate them.

Pietta made Remington .44s and .36s are both made on the .44 frame, which lowers production costs, but is historically incorrect...and it makes the Remington Navis very heavy. The S&B is considerably lighter.The S&Bbarrel is listed at .372". Don't know why you would want to ream the chambers. It is extremely accurate as is.

Remington #10 caps were too big. I had to pinch them tight. I had trouble getting that spent cap off of the cone.

The grip is smaller than the Remington. I curl my little finger underneath it..

18 grains is a mild load. I don't know if the frame will tolerate more without stretching, but 18 grains is my usual load in brass framed guns, as opposed to 22 grains in steel frames.

Hope I got all your questions. I'm scrolling back and forth trying to read them all.

 

[Don]

A very timely post as I have a Spiller and Burr on back order from Cabelas. It was on sale for $199 so I couldn't pass it up. Thanks for another informative video. :thumbsup:

Don

 

[Zonie]

I suggest sticking to shooting roundballs on the S&B.

It wasn't mentioned in the video but the loading lever on both the S&B and the Whitney is considerably weaker than the one on the Remington.

Where the Remington has a big beefy screw holding the loading lever in place and providing strength to take the force of ramming the ball/bullet, the S&B and Whitney have two very small screws trying to do the same job.

This makes the likehood of shearing off one of the screws more likely if heavy forces are needed to load the cylinder.

Also, the 1/4 turn retaining screw on the S&B that holds the cylinder pin is a weaker design than the Remington because this screw and the interference between it and the cylinder pin must take the full force of the ram while loading.
This makes it quite possible to damage the retaining screw if too much force is used to ram the bullet or ball.

One of the things I like about the S&B and the Whitney is the shape of the grip.

The video mentioned the grip is smaller than the Remington but if you look at the gun next to the Remington you will notice the shape is quite different.

To me, this grip fits my hand more like a Colt grip than the Remington making the gun more "pointable".

 

[B. Miller]

Lee makes 3 conical molds for black powder revolvers. The one for the navy is 0.375 with two lube grooves. They are not much bigger than a roundball.

 

[awebbersr]

Enjoyed the video, Thanks for showing it. :hatsoff:

 

[rodwha]

I've been told it won't fit under the ram.

My understanding, much like the other Lee conicals, is that they are certainly longer than a RB as they are a pointy RN design.

Part of my idea is to create a FN conical that is potentially shorter than a RB. In fact I'd likely modify one offered by Accurate Molds that weighs 100 grns but is .365" long.

 

[hawkeye2]

The Lee conicals for C&B revolvers aren't pointy, they have a nose radius equal to half the diameter of the bullet. They are longer than a round ball's diameter though. The cutout in the Spiller & Burr frame isn't large enough for a conical but that wouldn't be a problem if the cylinder is loaded outside the frame. My experience with conicals in revolvers is that they do not shoot as well as properly fitting round balls. I have quite a number of C&B revolvers including 2 Spiller & Burrs and none have a fast enough twist to stabilize an elongated projectile.

The S&B is a much stronger gun than a brass framed "Colt" in that the barrel is attached to the frame which has a top strap. This eliminated the firing stress being transmitted through the cylinder arbor to the frame which is one area that shoots loose in a Colt. The cylinder does still batter the standing breech in firing and the gun will eventually develop excessive end play. The top strap is also subject to gas cutting. Neither of these things is a real major issue as if fired with reasonable loads they will give years of fun.

I shot one in competition, not too seriously, mostly for fun, for a couple of years and found a couple of shortcomings. The gun was out of the box stock other than a very little slicking up (no trigger work) inside and had an unaltered front sight. Naturally it shot very high at 25 yards. Balance and pointability were quite good. Fit of caps and cap jams were never a problem with the original nipples. The grip is small but acceptable. I don't have large hands but the knuckle of my middle finger was very close to the trigger guard. I shot with my little finger under the bottom of the grip to keep the gun from sliding through my hand but the trigger guard still rapped the knuckle so that a 10 round match was uncomfortable and distracting and a 18 to 24 round team match was painful. I don't remember the load now as it's been near 25 years but it wouldn't have been over 18 grains of 3f and no less than 16 grains. The other problem was that the grip was so close to the trigger that it was difficult to get my index finger on the trigger properly for good control. All in all I had a lot of fun with it but it was not a serious match gun.

 

[rodwha]

I called the Lee conical a pointy RN as it's not a true RN, but more like a semi spitzer design, which is something like a pointy RN.

The idea of designing a conical that's close to the length of a RB is what makes these ideal to me in that you get a heavier conical that may very well shoot well in a slow twist barrel that doesn't do well with a more traditional conical.

 

[Wes/Tex]

In the totally FWIW category for the Spiller & Burr, everyone of the existing 12 original revolvers has an obvious twist flaw on the cylinder surface. It's a result of the twist put in the iron bar to strengthen it to be safe to use for revolver cylinders. Not a cheat going on...original contract mentions it, so they knew going in that good gun steel was touch to get. Some of the later Griswold & Gunnison's show this same twist flaw on the cylinders. maybe if Eli Whitney, Jr. had tried it a few more Walkers would have survived! :thumbsup: So, if you want your S&P authentic, scribe a line across the cylinder! :haha:

 

[Zonie]

If someone is going that far to make their S&B look authentic they will need to silver plate all of the exposed brass surfaces too. :grin:

 

[Wes/Tex]

According to my sources, although in the contract, the silver plating was dropped my mutual consent before full production was attempted.

 

[B. Miller]

Pietta's web site has two other S&B models available, but have never seen either one. They look to either be silver or chrome plated.

 

[aeatwood]

You would have to create a rebated "heel" on the short conical as well. Nearly 1/3 of the length of a RB is sitting in the chamber when you rotate it under the rammer. To fit under the same length plunger, you would need a conical ~2/3 the length/dia of a round ball if it does not have a heel like the Lee conicals.

 

[rodwha]

I figured a .370-.372" base would do well with driving bands .377-.380" and an overall length no more than .380". I'd have it in hand first so I could see what I thought, and measure it.

I could even have the seating base lengthened to increase the amount that sits in the chamber as I did with my heavy hunting bullet.

But I might even have the ram shortened a bit so that it doesn't occupy the loading window. I'm thinking of doing that to my Pietta '58. But I want to see how these conicals work in it as is first.

 

[Zonie]

Just keep in mind, as I mentioned before, the loading lever on the Spiller & Burr uses two very small screws to take the entire load of forcing a ball or bullet into the chamber.

When I say small, I'm talking about a body diameter of about 3mm or .118.
That's about the size of a #4-48 screw.

It does not take as much force to shear steel as it does to pull it apart and the two screws are being subjected to shear loads when you use the loading lever.

A roundball is only having a very short amount of material shaved off when it's loaded. This doesn't take a large amount of force to get the ball into the chamber.

A bullet on the other hand will need the full length of the bore size area sheared off which takes a lot more force to do.

 

[rodwha]

In your opinion would it help if the cast conical was just barely over chamber size and the driving bands rather short? Or even that the chambers were chamfered?

 

[Zonie]

IMO, if your determined to shoot bullets out of a S&B you would be best off to remove the cylinder from the gun and use a small loading press to load the bullets.