St. Louis Hawken recoil

[russellshaffer]

I was seriously confused here. I thought you had a Traiditions product from Spain. Disregard my breech comments.

 

[Dusty_Traveler]

Yes, it would make sense that it’s below that spot. I’ll need to take some smaller things to know if it is a chambered breech. I can do those tests tomorrow. I am very capable of unbreeching this rifle. I am a builder. Unmentionables and muzzleloaders. Please, no one berate me on unscrewing a breech plug. I have the tools to do this. But I think I can do this with some honing of the barrel. 1200 grit on the end of the range rod. On an unmentionable it would be the same. Just not all the way through. I will see this weekend. Thanks for the replies.

Jon

I just ordered barrel clamps and a breech plug wrench from Rice today. I have an investarms Hawken with a bad bore. I have found a good used barrel, but in left hand...hopefully all I have to do is swap the patent breeches....no berating from me, I'm all about doing what has to be done to make it work right. lets just hope yours and mine both come out easy

 

[sturmkatze]

Hello,
I have a St. Louis Hawken .54 calibre made in the early 80s. I have only shot it three times. 50grs. of 3f Swiss was my starting load. It kicks like a danged mule. I was using the just off the bi-cep hold. You know like everyone tells you to do. But those three shots were painful. They all touched on the paper, so I guess it was a pretty good load. Hit low right though at 40yds. This rifle weighs over 11lbs. The heavy recoil was something I wasn’t expecting. I’m I doing something wrong? 50 grains doesn’t seem a very high load. Also just patched roundball. Does anyone have any insight to make this a more comfortable rifle to shoot?

Thank you, Jon

Jon, I don't know who says to hold it just if your bicep, but, uh, don't. Pull it tight into your shoulder. Maybe I got what you wrote mixed up. It's morning. I do that. Still, pull it tight into your shoulder. 50gr should not hurt.

 

[sheriff john]

Taught combat shotgun & pistol to L.E. cadets over 25 years. Men & women. Full-house slug and buckshot loads from lightweight riot guns. Some had bruises that turned green as well as black. All caused by shooters who did not mount the butt firmly in the "pocket" and a firm grip on the forearm. Course required standing, kneeling, prone, and unsupported from the hip.

As others have pointed out - unless the buttstock is firmly imbedded, even light loads can jar the fillings from your teeth.

 

[Dusty_Traveler]

I think, historically, some of the the rear stock shapes, amount of drop and crescent butt profiles were definitely made to be shot offhand from the bicep. Now these are usually smaller caliber guns that I have seen like that, so recoil wouldnt be a big issue. Shooting a larger caliber though, I would definitely want it to fit well right up against my shoulder.

 

[Redlemur60]

To little info, but for sure its not the 50 gr. Load , load
Take a look at the bore
(With a bore scope)
Stop shooting this gun its dangerous!

 

[Redlemur60]

HEADS DONT GROW BACK. !

 

[Russ T Frizzen]

Jon, I don't know who says to hold it just if your bicep, but, uh, don't. Pull it tight into your shoulder. Maybe I got what you wrote mixed up. It's morning. I do that. Still, pull it tight into your shoulder. 50gr should not hurt.

If it has a crescent butt piece, it should mount between the bicep and the deltoid. There is a notch formed by the muscles.

 

[Grenadier1758]

I didn’t try it with a normal hold.

Your St. Louis Hawken has a sufficiently curved butt plate for the bicep hold.

The Hawken rifles were breeched using a chambered breech. They used a system the used a fairly open chamber. A 54 caliber jag would stop at the mouth of the chamber. A 50 caliber might try to start but not fit and be hard to remove.

At the Hawken Classic, the Hawken Shop built 4 rifles from parts dating from the 1980's. The rifles were shot in a competition for 4 Gemmer Gun Club Members. The 4 calibers were 45, 50, 54 and 62. The suggested loads were in the hunting load charge using round ball and patches. As I recall, the loads were 70 for the 45, 75 for the 50, 80 for the 54 and 90 for the 62. The competitors shot 3 practice and 5 scoring shots. None complained of excessive recoil.

This still leaves us all perplexed as to why Jon is experiencing a lot of recoil. I don't think the chambered breech is responsible for the recoil. The relatively narrow butt plate can lead to bruising with a stout load. Jon should have experience establishing a solid hold to keep recoil tamed. I'd have to watch Jon shoot to offer an opinion or have the opportunity to shoot his rifle.

 

[JonBishop]

The .54 jag got hung up requiring a mallet to get out the .50 went in 5/16” farther and did not get hung up. I have a .32 jag that I will try when I find it. Maybe it will go on down even more. But to be clear here, a Hawken Shop rifle custom built in circa 1981 will have chambered breech? I have no borescope to really check. Just a light shining down the bore and I cannot tell.

Your St. Louis Hawken has a sufficiently curved butt plate for the bicep hold.

The Hawken rifles were breeched using a chambered breech. They used a system the used a fairly open chamber. A 54 caliber jag would stop at the mouth of the chamber. A 50 caliber might try to start but not fit and be hard to remove.

At the Hawken Classic, the Hawken Shop built 4 rifles from parts dating from the 1980's. The rifles were shot in a competition for 4 Gemmer Gun Club Members. The 4 calibers were 45, 50, 54 and 62. The suggested loads were in the hunting load charge using round ball and patches. As I recall, the loads were 70 for the 45, 75 for the 50, 80 for the 54 and 90 for the 62. The competitors shot 3 practice and 5 scoring shots. None complained of excessive recoil.

This still leaves us all perplexed as to why Jon is experiencing a lot of recoil. I don't think the chambered breech is responsible for the recoil. The relatively narrow butt plate can lead to bruising with a stout load. Jon should have experience establishing a solid hold to keep recoil tamed. I'd have to watch Jon shoot to offer an opinion or have the opportunity to shoot his rifle.

 

[gunpa]

Do you have a chamber scraper? They are usually undersized enough to go into the patent breach. I have to clean mine out on my 54 TC after shooting. Make sure you don't have powder crud in there. But as has been said 50 grains is no recoil.

 

[Grenadier1758]

@JonBishop,

The Hawken Shop Breeches today and from 1981 are the same. They are all chambered breeches.

Here is the Hawken Shop page showing the breeches. The flash channel is bored from the nipple seat into the chamber in the breech plug that is threaded into the barrel.

https://www.thehawkenshop.com/Depar...omponents/Hawken-Shop-Breeches-and-Tangs.aspx

 

[JonBishop]

@JonBishop,

The Hawken Shop Breeches today and from 1981 are the same. They are all chambered breeches.

Here is the Hawken Shop page showing the breeches. The flash channel is bored from the nipple seat into the chamber in the breech plug that is threaded into the barrel.

https://www.thehawkenshop.com/Depar...omponents/Hawken-Shop-Breeches-and-Tangs.aspx

Do you know the size of the chambered breech? I have some literature and provenance on this rifle but that’s not in it.

 

[Grenadier1758]

I don't know the size of the chamber. You might be able to contact the Hawken Shop and they could provide the information.

 

[Snake Pleskin]

I have several ML's like most people here, and the Hawken style, curved butt plate is not particularly comfortable no matter how well you hold it. The wider, slight curve Lancaster, Haines & Fowler butts are ten times better IMHO.

 

[Packrat]

I have a Pedersoli 1816 Musket. A friend, maybe not, cast up some 69 caliber minnies, about 1 ounce each. I made up a Rev war load, 110 grains of powder, 10 for the pan and 100 for the bore. When it went off I took about three steps backwards, if it had been four i would have went down. It did not hurt it was just a GIANT push
Don't think I would do it again

 

[LME]

Taught combat shotgun & pistol to L.E. cadets over 25 years. Men & women. Full-house slug and buckshot loads from lightweight riot guns. Some had bruises that turned green as well as black. All caused by shooters who did not mount the butt firmly in the "pocket" and a firm grip on the forearm. Course required standing, kneeling, prone, and unsupported from the hip.

As others have pointed out - unless the buttstock is firmly imbedded, even light loads can jar the fillings from your teeth.

If you shoot prone or on a bench your shoulder will turn black. Some shooter used padded vest or padded butt plates`.when I competed, with guns that didn't use a ramrod. I shot two times a week minimum! my shoulder never did turn white! I was to stupid to use any padding?

 

[DuncNZ]

This is a patent breach for a .54 Uberti Hawken .I intend to get another barrel in .45 and fit this breach so I could change calibers with ease , somehow that never happened , the chamber is 1.25" deep and 0.4" wide . I made up wood screw to act as a jag for cleaning the breach and soldered it to a rod so I could screw it back and forth to clean it completely . . I would have a wadded up piece of cloth extending past the end of the screw , it was easy to clean this way , brushes never worked as well

 

[JonBishop]

This is a patent breach for a .54 Uberti Hawken .I intend to get another barrel in .45 and fit this breach so I could change calibers with ease , somehow that never happened , the chamber is 1.25" deep and 0.4" wide . I made up wood screw to act as a jag for cleaning the breach and soldered it to a rod so I could screw it back and forth to clean it completely . . I would have a wadded up piece of cloth extending past the end of the screw , it was easy to clean this way , brushes never worked as well

That looks very similar to what I can see down my barrel. Will the breech hold 50grs of fffg?

Jon

 

[DuncNZ]

That looks very similar to what I can see down my barrel. Will the breech hold 50grs of fffg?

Jon

Hey Jon , I just went and checked , it holds 35gr of fffg powder . One thing I did not show is there is a screw on the left hand side of the breach where they manufacturer has drilled through to meet up with the bottom of the nipple , and used a screw , not a cleanout screw, to block the hole . The powder goes to the bottom of the nipple then burns at right angles to the main charge before igniting it .
I believe the purpose of a patent breach , other than allowing the barrels to be detached easily , is to provide a small thick walled combustion chamber to withstand higher pressures and give better ignition with smaller charges of powder .
My mate has several Cohorn mortar's which have a small combustion chamber in the breach , one which has a chamber the size of a old type film canister will launch a concrete filled beer can from a barrel only 1 inch longer than the can , about 250 feet in the air and 300 yards down range ,Depending on the way it is slanted to aim , it uses fg or ffg powder .