Stainless Barrels -- Softer?

Everytime I clean my 1860 Colt, I think about the fact that, for a little more money (and a whole lot less authenticity) I could have gotten one of those 1858 Remington replicas in stainless steel and never fretted a bit about corrosion.

Then I got to thinking. One thing I have learned in buying knives for scuba diving is that you're always compromising when you buy stainless steel. If you buy a knife that will hold an edge, then it will not be a completely rust-free stainless steel -- which sounds like a contradiction, but it's true (when I dive in saltwater, I always clean my "stainless" knife at the end of the day with beach sand, and then rinse with fresh-water and dry thoroughly, otherwise it will be pitted by morning).

And if you buy a knife made from a stainless stell that absolutely won't hold rust a bit after immersion in the ocean, then you get a soft knife that won't hold an edge worth beans.

Which got me thinking, vis-a-vis these stainless-steel revolvers -- are the barrels on these softer and more prone to wear than a conventional steel barrel? Or are the stainless repros made of a harder stainless that actually will rust (thus defeating the purpose of getting the stainless weapon in the first place)?

Has anyone used one of these long enough to guage barrel wear and corrosion resistance?

Not that I plan on buying one, but it's one of those things that I woke up in the middle of the night wondering.

Tom

 

[Stumpkiller]

Good question. Now I'll be up all night wondering myself.

I do know there's a gazillion kinds of knife steel. I've had some stainless that takes and holds an edge very well, and lots that don't. I have a good sized sailboat and even among the stainless used in fasteners and hardware you have to be careful. A type 316 steel bolt (aka "aircraft grade") is twice as rust free as a type 304, and the stuff you get at Tru-Value & such is worse yet (soft and rusty). Even the best stainless will rust eventually in harsh environments.

As for dive knives: most are designed to be used for prying. A good, hard steel (high carbon or stainless) would snap with such "abuse." Carry a flat chisel tipped pry-bar style knife for probing and prying and a SOG Seal Tec for cutting. Mine holds an AMAZING edge (but it will rust if not rinsed).

Normal care precludes the need for stainless.

To my knowledge, all of the internal springs are not stainless, anyway.

 

[musketman]

quote:Originally posted by Morrisey:
Everytime I clean my 1860 Colt, I think about the fact that, for a little more money (and a whole lot less authenticity) I could have gotten one of those 1858 Remington replicas in stainless steel and never fretted a bit about corrosion.How about buying an unblued one, then have it bronzed...

 

[BrownBear]

I don't have any experience with stainless muzzleloaders, and because "stainless" is a broad category I'd hate to speculate. However, I have a lot of experience with cartridge arms in stainless, due to our huumid coastal climate.

I haven't noticed that stainless barrels are any softer than conventional arms, but all will rust to a degree if not cared for. Some of my revolvers date back to the first year of release of stainless models more than 15 years ago, and they still shoot incredibly accurately in spite of heavy use and frequent cleaning.

If you get a scratch on the satin finish you can buff it out with the right steel wool. Just make sure that it is stainless steel wool so you don't end up imbedding particles of regular steel in your stainless. That turns into a mess in a hurry when you next expose the arm to salt air.

In my experience hunting with stainless arms, they are so visible that they become a liability- especially at closer ranges such as those typical of conventional muzzleloaders. With the option of stainless steel versions, I still have opted for blued or browned in our challenging climate due to the visibility factor. There might be advantages in the cleaning department, but the new black powder alternatives offer similar advantages in conventional muzzleloaders without the bright reflections inherent in stainless arms. Not criticizing your choice of stainless, rather explaining how my experiences affected my choices.

 

[tg]

The visability factor is an interesting one, in the early 18th century all French trade and hunting guns were made with polished or highly polished barrels and folks seemed to do rather well up the entire Miss. valley into Canada....maybe the eyesight of the game was not as sharp back then?

 

[roundball]

I used to worry about that sort of thing years ago but after hunting for a lot of years now, I no longer believe it's of any consequence in deer hunting.

In fact for years I've gone to great lengths to keep all the brass on my Hawkens as shiny as the day they were built...even added full length solid, shiny brass ramrods...makes no difference at all.

The main things I learned are to concentrate on wind/scent direction, and being as still as possible when when I'm hunting

 

[BrownBear]

I suspect that there were a whole lot less people back then, and the folks using them were probably a heck of a lot better at stalking than we are.

Up here we have light hunting pressure in most locations, but a few are more accessible to town and consequently get a lot more pressure. Far from town the flash of stainless doesn't seem to be an issue. But in heavily hunted areas close to town you are well advised not to go packing anything flashy- be it shiny stainless steel or a mirror-smooth epoxy finish on a rifle stock- and expect to get close. Come to think of it, I'd probably get more deer if I covered the top of my head!

 

[Zonie]

About stainless: There are three families or types of stainless.
One is called Austinitic which has almost no iron in it at all. This type of stainless has numbers which start with 3 like 302, 316,321 and 347. It is the kind that doesn't "rust" at all but it will lightly corrode in salt spray.
Although there is no heat treat to harden it like steel it can be hardened by applying extreme pressure. This is commenly known as "work hardening".
If the barrel is "button rifled" where they force a hardened steel ball with rifleing on it down thru the bore it will work harden and give fairly good life. If they use a Cutting method of making the rifleing like with a broach the material will be soft and gummy. Shooting modern jacketed bullets will work harden it some but not much. Shooting lead balls will do nothing to harden it.
Austinitic Stainless is kinda weak unless it's work hardened and most of it has the strength of low carbon mild steel or less. It makes very poor knife blades. This kind of stainless is Not Magnetic.

Another type is called Martinsitic Stainless and it contains a lot of iron. This kind of stainless has numbers that start with 4 like 416, 420 and 440. It is heat treatable to very hard conditions and makes great knives. It is very strong and it makes good gun barrels if they are heat treated properly. It's big problem is that because there is a lot of iron in it, it rusts more easily than the Austinetic types and the heat treatment costs money. If the Stainless is Magnetic it is usually Martinsitic.

The Precipitating Hardening stainless like 15-5PH and 17-4PH materials are very corrosion resistant and harden nicely. They are tougher than owl scat and are easily the strongest of the stainless matching a lot of high strength steels BUT they are Very Expensive when compared with the other kinds of stainless. This kind of stainless is Magnetic. This is used a lot in Aircraft and Aircraft Jet Engines. (Now how the He** did I know that?)

Enough boring work kind o stuff fer now, Ah says!
Back ta the Forum!!

 

Thanks, Jim --

I'm printing out that post and filing it. Now I know what to look for when I'm looking at stainless.

Of course, as much as I gripe about it, I still prefer the period look of my traditional-material Colt.

Tom

 

[Zonie]

Morrisey: Glad to help.
I didn't mention my gun experiance with stainless.
At a gun show a guy was selling a Remington 1858 Kit, and said he wanted $50.
Thinking how can you go wrong, I bought it thinking it was just unfinished steel.
It turned out to be a non-magnetic (300 series) stainless that was a real pain in the arse to file (it would gum up the file teeth) and sand. It did polish nicely though.
I'd say it took 3 times longer to finish that gun than a nice carbon steel gun!

 

[R.Dorsett]

I had a guy from a bullet manufacter tell me ''We don't use guns with stainless steel barrels because they are harder,blued barrels are more consistent.

 

[Gray Beard]

In 1913, English metallurgist Harry Brearly, working on a project to improve rifle barrels, accidentally discovered that adding chromium to low carbon steel gives it stain resistance. In addition to iron, carbon, and chromium, modern stainless steel may also contain other elements, such as nickel, niobium, molybdenum, and titanium. Nickel, molybdenum, niobium, and chromium enhance the corrosion resistance of stainless steel. It is the addition of a minimum of 12% chromium to the steel that makes it resist rust, or stain 'less' than other types of steel. The chromium in the steel combines with oxygen in the atmosphere to form a thin, invisible layer of chrome-containing oxide, called the passive film. The sizes of chromium atoms and their oxides are similar, so they pack neatly together on the surface of the metal, forming a stable layer only a few atoms thick. If the metal is cut or scratched and the passive film is disrupted, more oxide will quickly form and recover the exposed surface, protecting it from oxidative corrosion. (Iron, on the other hand, rusts quickly because atomic iron is much smaller than its oxide, so the oxide forms a loose rather than tightly-packed layer and flakes away.) The passive film requires oxygen to self-repair, so stainless steels have poor corrosion resistance in low-oxygen and poor circulation environments. In seawater, chlorides from the salt will attack and destroy the passive film more quickly than it can be repaired in a low oxygen environment.


Types of Stainless Steel

The three main types of stainless steels are austenitic, ferritic, and martensitic. These three types of steels are identified by their microstructure or predominant crystal phase.

Austenitic:
Austenitic steels have austenite as their primary phase (face centered cubic crystal). These are alloys containing chromium and nickel (sometimes manganese and nitrogen), structured around the Type 302 composition of iron, 18% chromium, and 8% nickel. Austenitic steels are not hardenable by heat treatment. The most familiar stainless steel is probably Type 304, sometimes called T304 or simply 304. Type 304 surgical stainless steel is an austenitic steel containing 18-20% chromium and 8-10% nickel.

Ferritic:
Ferritic steels have ferrite (body centered cubic crystal) as their main phase. These steels contain iron and chromium, based on the Type 430 composition of 17% chromium. Ferritic steel is less ductile than austenitic steel and is not hardenable by heat treatment.

Martensitic:
The characteristic orthorhombic martensite microstructure was first observed by German microscopist Adolf Martens around 1890. Martensitic steels are low carbon steels built around the Type 410 composition of iron, 12% chromium, and 0.12% carbon. They may be tempered and hardened. Martensite gives steel great hardness, but it also reduces its toughness and makes it brittle, so few steels are fully hardened.

There are also other grades of stainless steels, such as precipitation-hardened, duplex, and cast stainless steels. Stainless steel can be produced in a variety of finishes and textures and can be tinted over a broad spectrum of colors.


Passivation

There is some dispute over whether the corrosion resistance of stainless steel can be enhanced by the process of passivation. Essentially, passivation is the removal of free iron from the surface of the steel. This is performed by immersing the steel in an oxidant, such as nitric acid or citric acid solution. Since the top layer of iron is removed, passivation diminishes surface discoloration. While passivation does not affect the thickness or effectiveness of the passive layer, it is useful in producing a clean surface for a further treatment, such as plating or painting. On the other hand, if the oxidant is incompletely removed from the steel, as sometimes happens in pieces with tight joints or corners, then crevice corrosion may result. Most research indicates that diminishing surface particle corrosion does not reduce susceptibility to pitting corrosion.

 

[TwoShadows]

Ah is awed (AWWWW...) 'n amazed at tha knowledge thet is cummin outten a couple uv these hyar posts. Ah knowed ah dinna lak stainless....jest dinna know why. Now ah does!

Y'all dun skeered me outen askin enny kwestshuns ennymore. Ah wuz gonna ast iffn hell wuz endothermic or exothermic, but ah is afeered uv whut tha answer wud be now.....

 

[Stumpkiller]

Another treat will be had for you guys that clean with peroxide. It will de-passify stainless (I believe that is the correct term) and cause it to pit deeply and quickly. This I know from sailboating circles and now it is reinforced by Gray Beard's post.

As far as bright and shiny making stainless more 'visible' - it would be a heck of a good cover pattern in what I see outside my window at the moment. White, white, white.