Striated frizzens

[LRB]

As I understand it, most gun makers made numerous guns and no two were ever alike. There were always various differences and some makers took designs from numerous other makers thus making a kind of Frankengun. Something with bits and pieces from other gun designs.

This comment has been said on here by a few so please share with this newbie what makes this gun so non PC?

I'm afraid you have a complete misunderstanding of the 18th c. gunmakers, but I'll let others explain more in detail. Basically, a Pedersoli long rifle is no closer to an original long rifle, than Homer Simpson is to a real live person. The Pedersoli is an over priced cartoon version of a long rifle. They do though seem to shoot accurately enough when they ignite the charge properly, which only a few actually will in a reliable manner.

 

[Rick Boylan]

As I understand it, most gun makers made numerous guns and no two were ever alike. There were always various differences and some makers took designs from numerous other makers thus making a kind of Frankengun. Something with bits and pieces from other gun designs.

This comment has been said on here by a few so please share with this newbie what makes this gun so non PC?

I'm afraid you have a complete misunderstanding of the 18th c. gunmakers, but I'll let others explain more in detail. Basically, a Pedersoli long rifle is no closer to an original long rifle, than Homer Simpson is to a real live person. The Pedersoli is an over priced cartoon version of a long rifle. They do though seem to shoot accurately enough when they ignite the charge properly, which only a few actually will in a reliable manner.

Maybe I'm just lucky but my Kentucky model shoots every time (as long as the flint is sharp) and it is pretty darn accurate as long as I do my part. I'm sure I lack the depth of historical knowledge on these guns as many here seem to have a great deal of knowledge on the subject. That is why I am asking this.

Pardon my saying this, but it seems that there is a bit of gun snobbery between those who spend thousands on a custom built gun over those who buy off the shelf. From what I've been reading on this forum, it seems that quite a few who use off the shelf (Pedersoli, CVA, Thompson, etc) have been winning matches against those who favor the custom built guns. But I could be just getting that impression from a smattering of posts.

Please, more info from those in the know. :bow:

 

[Col. Batguano]

Pardon my saying this, but it seems that there is a bit of gun snobbery between those who spend thousands on a custom built gun over those who buy off the shelf. From what I've been reading on this forum, it seems that quite a few who use off the shelf (Pedersoli, CVA, Thompson, etc) have been winning matches against those who favor the custom built guns. But I could be just getting that impression from a smattering of posts.
:bow:

What a gun looks like has almost nothing to do with how well it shoots.

The only thing that matters there is the consistency of the barrel harmonics when the projectile leaves the bore. A gun with a plastic stock can shoot just as well (and probably better) than a gun with a stock made from the one true cross, and blessed by St. Peter himself. Good sights or lousy ones don't matter. Only if the shooter uses them consistently and knows where the projectile will go, and when it will go there.

What you are mistaking here for gun snobbery, is actually intellectual historical curiosity, which is manifested in a quest for knowledge in the form of an historically accurate instrument of the period. Since it goes boom it's even better. :grin:

When you build them, through all the research involved, you acquire a deeper perspective and more thorough knowledge base regarding what got done where, why, and when. The guys with the $10,000 guns feel that way (whether they built them or bought them) because they committed (either the time or the financial resources) to having that sort of a gun. The reason they are snobby about it is the typical male need for a competitive measure against their peers. The smartest ones out there will never tell you that they are though, and don't feel the need or see the point in "keeping score".

 

[Alden]

Iowa;
The snobby guys are pretty obvious. You are correct that some gunmakers really made no two guns exactly alike -- Hawkens for example which is why it is so comical when one of these snobs whine that a T/C isn't a Hawken is somewhat, albeit not totally, silly. No HAWKEN is "a Hawken" because there is no such single thing.

But there were Besses. And they were mass produced. And makers who weren't governments themselves had to follow patterns very closely.

Pedersoli is the undisputed world champion of production muzzleloaders. What specifically about the Spanish gun missing the mark were a plethora of relatively simple fails including other things than Dave's points IIRC such as having the wrong ramrod and the bands actually being in the wrong place... Do an internet search of reviews of the gun. As Dave said they really seem to have taken the French gun and made some minor adaptations to create the Spanish. Makes sense because...

The guns on the continent at the time were rather similar and these two were twins though not identical. In the past the comments you'd hear around camps was that if you want a Spanish gun just buy the French. Well, so, if ya come out with a "Spanish" why isn't it more exacting? If it were perfect I'd have one.

Dave;
Know MVT has the Spanish and I will be looking at one when I see them next. Similarly, if I'd have to start making changes, unless I were desparate for my personna or some other compelling reason, personally, I'd probably pass. Not a fan of India-made I am still glad they are an option and have bought one recently that I won't have for another two months...

 

[rich pierce]

It's an exaggeration and a trick to say that no 2 originals were alike so anything goes. First, it is EASY to identify a Jacob Dickert rifle of the 1770s to 1790s for example. Same with a J &S Hawken plains rifle. A blind man can easily tell the difference between an original Hawken rifle and a TC Hawkens. I am not joking. Weight, length, balance, shaping, all easily make the two as alike as gymnasts and linebackers. That doesn't make the TC Hawken a shoddy or inaccurate or unreliable gun, but it surely is not a Hawken in styling any more than an El Camino is a Ford F150.

Not sure why owners of mass produced guns bristle when the obvious marketing ploys of the manufacturers are pointed out. The same bogus marketing ploys are pointed out of makers who market "Virginia" rifles. As though one type of rifle was made in Virginia. Silly but folks love it.

 

The same bogus marketing ploys are pointed out of makers who market "Virginia" rifles.

Why is it nobody makes a good "New Jersey" rifle? :rotf:

 

[Loyalist Dave]

Pardon my saying this, but it seems that there is a bit of gun snobbery between those who spend thousands on a custom built gun over those who buy off the shelf. From what I've been reading on this forum, it seems that quite a few who use off the shelf (Pedersoli, CVA, Thompson, etc) have been winning matches against those who favor the custom built guns. But I could be just getting that impression from a smattering of posts.

Well now you're comparing apples to oranges and also to grapes....

First, the Pedersoli products of which you asked your first question are muskets that are priced at the same level as a custom made rifle. You can find historically correct used rifles, sometimes new, for $1500... while the Pedersoli Bess or Spanish 1757muskets are far from being correct.

Then you bring up accuracy between TC, CVA, and Pedersoli (you forgot Lyman) as you mention winning matches... Well we weren't discussing winning matches and functionability other than a possible advantage on the grooved frizzen.

For the record, TC and Lyman normally function quite well, and the CVA almost as well, with the Pedersoli probably has the most complaints (albeit they are still low level and often model specific), when it comes to function and shooting accuracy. I own TC and CVA and they work fine. They are as close to a historic presentation of a rifle as the PT Cruiser is to a 1940 Ford van.

I suppose you are talking local matches for in national and international matches you won't find any of those factory brands other than Pedersoli, and the Pedersoli rifles winning those matches are not their bottom of the line offerings that are price comperable to TC and Lyman. OH and Lyman and TC rifles are made with better quality barrels than the Pedersoli rifles of the same class.

I've seen the Pedersoli produced video on how they make their muskets... as far as the Bess is concerned, ONE hardware modificaton, and ONE cosmetic change to the lock plate shape would go a long way to improving their product as far as historic presentation... but they have no competition in most of the areas that they market so have no pressure to change. They work well, shoot well, most parts drop in...

LD

 

[redwing]

Wick Ellerby said it best. :bow:

 

[Rick Boylan]

I see your points gentlemen. Thank you for educating me. I appreciate those who got more specific on what it is that keeps the pedersoli from being a good replica of an original. I own a CVA Hawken in .50 and it is very accurate and has only failed to fire one time. I attribute that failure to the Pyrodex I used in it. When I use true black powder it fires every time and is a real tack driver. I also recently bought a Pedersoli Kentucky rifle in .45. I never owned a flintlock before but I really wanted to experience shooting one. I found it to be very reliable. Only time it didn't fire was when the flint got dull. Before that I shot 8 shots down range with all of them hitting the 8, 9, and 10 ring at 50 yards.

I went to a local historical museum and looked at the old flintlocks and cap locks they have on display. I guess I'm not gifted enough to see the differences between many of them and my rifle. Comparing Kentucky style rifles that is.

I bought my gun used for a little over $500. I looked at a few of the sites that sell the more customized and supposedly historical model rifles and their prices were out of my reach. I can't justify putting that kind of money into a gun that is nothing more than a replica of an original. After all, unless you are shooing an original you are using a replica. Whether you made it yourself, had it custom made or bought it off the shelf, it is a replica. Some are made better than others yes.

Most here are not snobs. But I have seen on a few threads on this forum where a couple of posters here seem to enjoy putting down the gun choices of others and I really believe that does nothing to help anyone, not even themselves. I believe we are all here to share in our enjoyment of this sport and the education we get from learning about how these guns work and the history around them. When people start having pi**ing contests on why my gun is inferior and their gun is superior then I get the feeling that some people just have to be in others faces to feel superior. It's never a good thing to put down others to make yourself seem more important.

 

[Rick Boylan]

From what I just read on the web, Pedersoli are made in Italy. At least that is what their website said.

 

[Zonie]

I believe that currently, all of the factory made muzzleloading and cap & ball reproductions are made in Italy or Spain.

The traditional guns imported by Traditions are made in Spain. The rest are made in Italy including Pedersoli and Uberti.

As for the Kentucky or Pennsylvania rifles made by these companies, they are not intended to recreate one of the actual guns made in the 18th and 19th century.
They are styled after those guns and depending on which one you look at their styling is (IMO) OK to good.

98 percent of the people who see one knows it is a "Kentucky rifle", even though it may not be a good reproduction of one of them.

For most people, that's good enough.

The important thing is for you to enjoy and have fun with it.

 

[Rick Boylan]

I believe that currently, all of the factory made muzzleloading and cap & ball reproductions are made in Italy or Spain.

The traditional guns imported by Traditions are made in Spain. The rest are made in Italy including Pedersoli and Uberti.

As for the Kentucky or Pennsylvania rifles made by these companies, they are not intended to recreate one of the actual guns made in the 18th and 19th century.
They are styled after those guns and depending on which one you look at their styling is (IMO) OK to good.

98 percent of the people who see one knows it is a "Kentucky rifle", even though it may not be a good reproduction of one of them.

For most people, that's good enough.

The important thing is for you to enjoy and have fun with it.

Believe me. I am having a world of fun with this gun. I always wanted to try shooting a flintlock after seeing them in LOTM and The Alamo. Also, Davy Crockett and Daniel Boone were part of my childhood. The part I like about front stuffers is the loading process. And the followup of when the gun goes off and you hit the target. When the gun goes off you know you did everything right and it's paying off. Instant gratification.

 

[Grumpa]

"a gun with a stock made from the one true cross" - Where can I get that one??! :haha: Off to Afghanistan with it;the perfect backup for the Puckle gun.

 

[Treestalker]

For directions to the True Cross, you might study Empress Flavia Lulia Helena Augusta, consort to Emperor Constantius Clorus, who went to Syria Palaestina and identified the True Cross and brought it back to Rome. She is one of my ancestors according to family genealogy, and her sarcophagus is in the Vatican. She is regarded as a Saint. From here, you're on your own, Bwana. :grin: George B.

 

[Grumpa]

So, if we ever meet and shake hands, I will have shook hand that - by extension, many times removed - touched "The True Cross"!

I haven't had the time to search the tree that far back...but I'm descended from royalty - all us Irish are! :haha:

But my wife is descended from a fellow who came over on the Mayflower with William Bradford.

 

[Wes/Tex]

"a gun with a stock made from the one true cross" - Where can I get that one??! :haha: Off to Afghanistan with it;the perfect backup for the Puckle gun.

It's pucklicious!
http://fc09.deviantart.net/fs71/f/2011/270/6/8/a_defence_by_crimsonmagpie-d3g9iel.jpg

 

[kingsax26]

iowa shooter,,, keep emjoying that rifle. I ahve a pedesoli and i love it.