Striated frizzens

[M. De Land]

I once saw a foreign flintlock from the middle east that had a striated frizzen and that always made me curious as to how well it worked.
My guess is that almost any stone would make a spark from it but flint life would be very short.
I have never seen one from an American made gun but surely it must have been tried by some one on this side of the pond. Mike D.

 

[Loyalist Dave]

If you are talking about a frizzen with a series of equal size, equally spaced, grooves running from top to bottom..., it's not uncommon, and is best known on Spanish muskets such as that found on the (here's a closup of a repro) 1757 Musket.

I was told ..., it was thought that a good spark from an inferior stone or worn flint could still be obtained from such a frizzen, as it reduces the surface area by about half... lowering friction and thus the speed of the flint moving downward is higher toward the end of the movement... That might be so, but I'd think that the grooves would also concentrate the initial impact at several points along the edge of the flint, thus, as you asked, perhaps eating the fint faster?

Another person mentioned to me that the lands on the surface, as they wear down, expose "fresh" untouched portions of the frizzen within the grooves ensuring a spark... I have thought that while this might be a very good thing on an India made repro lock, with a lower quality steel used in the frizzen... a lock well made in Spain for an original musket should have been properly hardened and tempered through and through, and thus no difference in steel hardness from one strike to the next...so no advantage to exposing "fresh" steel.

The Spaniards used it for a long time, so there may be something to it...

LD

 

[LRB]

Same as the best spark producing fire steels are narrow.

 

[curator]

Spanish flintlocks particularly "miquelets" used a grooved frizzen face in part due to the low quality of the local flint they were using at that time. I have a pair of miquelets with grooved frizzens and I use "recycled" English flints in them because I am cheap and I get another 40+ shots out of them.

 

[Rifleman1776]

All correct answers so far. Bottom line is they were an historical experiment that proved to have no advantage. Go with smooth and enjoy.

 

[Wes/Tex]

All correct answers so far. Bottom line is they were an historical experiment that proved to have no advantage. Go with smooth and enjoy.

Going to be my point as well...if they were a big improvement, we'd be using them now! :thumbsup:

 

[Alden]

Better quality flints may have negated the advantage of striated flints. That doesn't mean they didn't have an advantage or weren't a conditional improvement for their intended purpose -- I think they were.

But as good as the best buggy-whip ever made was (you may remember the model Rifleman 1776), and it was surely fine, I just don't need one today...

 

[Artificer]

I've seen the striated frizzens on some original German and Dutch military flintlocks as well.

I do think it had to do with flint manufacturing technology. In "Colonial Frontier Guns" by T.M. Hamilton - there is a lot of information on the types and quality of gun flints and by which country used which types. He mentions that the British did not learn how to make the type flints we see today as "English Gun Flints" before they captured French prisoners who knew how to make them and the "French Secret" was out. Hamilton dates this as circa 1780 and mentions the British often purchased their flints from France. Now, considering how often the British were at war with France in the 17th and 18th centuries, I bet they ran low or learned to stock up when they were not shooting at each other. Grin.

Gus

 

[LRB]

I believe CURATOR's experience waylays any doubts that it has advantages, but I have no plans to striate my rifle lock frizzen.

 

[Rifleman1776]

Better quality flints may have negated the advantage of striated flints.

Yep, fer sure.
Genetic modification and fertilizing techniques have improved greatly on the quality of flints we raise and harvest today.

 

[wulf]

I have made several Miquelets and figured the grooves were to direct the sparks down into the pan...I have found that these things are some real
sparkers and aren't too fussy about what kind of
flint is used...but what do I know. But I did like
all of the opinions.....

 

[Larry Pletcher]

Many years ago a primitive shooter at Friendship showed me a frizzen with two striations. They were "V" shaped, designed to concentrate the sparks in the pan. He asked that I time the lock to see if it was faster than the same model lock I had timed for a MuzzleBlasts article in the recent past. His opinion was that, based on shooting the lock, it was faster with the modified frizzen.

I took the lock home and timed the lock. It was slower that the MuzzleBlasts article lock. Since the test included two different locks, the lock speeds could be caused other variables. However, my feeling was that the striations decreased the frizzen surface contacting the flint.

When I returned the lock, I recommended that the owner replace the frizzen with a new one. The shooter did not acknowledge my reply; I suspect was was not happy with my conclusion.

Regards,
Pletch

 

[M. De Land]

Seems like it would have been a superior frizzen for the early fur trappers who could not always get good flints.
Wonder if there was disadvantage in wet weather because of added fouling from the striations?
I'd like to make and test one just to see for my self but that will have to be at the bottom of a long list of things that need to be done first.

 

[Loyalist Dave]

I have a pair of miquelets with grooved frizzens and I use "recycled" English flints in them because I am cheap and I get another 40+ shots out of them.

That's good info as I'm thinking of getting a Spanish 1757 repro with that frizzen, so I shall save up my used bess flints.

Rifleman1776:
All correct answers so far. Bottom line is they were an historical experiment that proved to have no advantage. Go with smooth and enjoy.

Not really sure that's a valid conclusion. The Spanish alone used the grooved frizzens for more than a century..., for tens of thousands of firearms... that's a pretty long time to fail to figure out it had no effect.

Yep, fer sure.
Genetic modification and fertilizing techniques have improved greatly on the quality of flints we raise and harvest today.

LOL :haha:

No but seriously, in addition to the information about the inferior manufacture of flints provided before the joke was made (after all flints grow as spalls which are large, and round, like melons and have to be processed for use :grin: ) you also have to remember that the Spanish Empire was the first world wide empire with flintlocks. It spanned the globe and resupply of flints was dependent on ships...so getting an extra 40 shots or so from each flint as Curator pointed out, might be a big advantage when facing angry Incas or Aztecs. Being able to knapp a piece of Quartz and make it work might also be an advantage.

By the time the Brits went global, ship technology, and metalurgy made resupply a bit less dicey, and about the same time the Spaniards dropped the regular use of the grooved frizzen, probably for the same reason.... they didn't need to squeeze out every possible shot from a flint before replacement...

LD

 

[Rifleman1776]

LD, I disagree with your logic on the striation business. Humans often do a lot of things the wrong way for a long time before figuring out their mistake.

Being able to knapp a piece of Quartz and make it work might also be an advantage.

I once made and sold quartz jewelry. I know it is almost the same as flint on the hardness scales. But, when I tried it in a lock sparks were absent. And this was Arkansas quartz, there ain't no better. :wink:

 

[Alden]

LOL Well, Pletch, you can't tell people the answer that's wrong from what they want, jeez. You'll NEVER buy any votes like that!

 

[Alden]

That's good info as I'm thinking of getting a Spanish 1757 repro with that frizzen, so I shall save up my used bess flints.


LD

Dave;
Not the Pedersoli I hope. As much as I like them and as good as they may be, they are just not historically-correctly-different to bother with the expense I'd say. I wanted one and pretty easily talked myself out of it after doing my homework...

Were I a "Spanierd" and it my only gun, yeah, OK...

 

[rickystl]

Don't know how I missed this Thread? Very interesting question. I have shot both flintlock and miquelet locks with grooved (ok striated) frizzens for a few years now. Personally, I have not noticed any advantage or disadvantage in their sparking ability, assuming a properly hardened frizzen. The only thing I have noticed, as Curator mentions, that the flints do seem to last a bit longer. I don't know exactly why. Maybe the grooves in the frizzen face act like some what of a self knapping feature? :idunno: The Spanish Military used the miquelet till about 1750 when they changed to the French style flintlock. Then, re-introduced the miquelet back about 1790. But continued the use of the grooved frizzen throughout this time. They believed the miquelet was more reliable, for some reason.
The grooved faced frizzens on the Middle Eastern guns I shoot, especially of miquelet style, tend to eat up flints very quickly. Definitely a self-knapping effect. :haha: But that's because of the very strong mainsprings required for the low quality of flint in that part of the world.
Anyway, in my personal shooting experience, I don't seem to notice it an advantage or disadvantage either way. Rick. :hatsoff:

 

[Rick Boylan]

Not the Pedersoli I hope. As much as I like them and as good as they may be, they are just not historically-correctly-different to bother with the expense I'd say.

I'm new to the flintlock guns so please bear with me. What is it that makes the Pedersoli not historically-correct?
As I understand it, most gun makers made numerous guns and no two were ever alike. There were always various differences and some makers took designs from numerous other makers thus making a kind of Frankengun. Something with bits and pieces from other gun designs.

This comment has been said on here by a few so please share with this newbie what makes this gun so non PC?

Thank you for your time and comments. I hope to be educated by them.

 

[Loyalist Dave]

Well first, the barrel should be octagon to round while the Pedersoli is round. The barrel bands are supposed to be brass in the 1757 version, while the Pedersoli are brass or gold plated steel as is the butt plate. The frizzen should be grooved, and the screw on the **** is not quite correct either. What many have suggested is this version is a slightly modified French musket trying to look like its Spanish cousin.

Actually Alden I was going to try the MVTC Spanish musket, as it has brass furniture and a grooved frizzen... but I can't decide between that or an NCO carbine from Loyalist Arms. With the Spanish musket, if the MVTC doesn't have an octagon to round barrel, I will probably swap it out for a .69 caliber French musket barrel from Colerain. Even with the added expense I'm saving $400 over the Pedersoli product.

LD