Suspicious Hawken Rifle

[plmeek]

Back at the beginning of this year, I started a thread I titled,

Do You See Anything Suspicious About This Rifle?
https://www.muzzleloadingforum.com/threads/do-you-see-anything-suspicious-about-this-rifle.108733/

I've come across another Hawken rifle that recently sold at auction that also looks suspicious to me.

https://www.proxibid.com/Firearms-M...RCUSSION-PLAINS-RIFLE/lotInformation/44252261

The lock on this rifle looks an awful lot like an L&R Hawken lock.

The internals look exactly like an L&R lock and the hammer resembles the L&R hammer. The "T. GIBBONS" stamp is located where the "L&R" stamp would normally be.

L&R Hawken Lock

Now, I haven't seen very many original T. Gibbons locks, but the one that Art Ressel used to cast his Hawken lock plate had the stamp more towards the nose. There is a drawing of another in Baird's first book (pg 54) that has the stamp located lower between the main spring arms and almost directly under the bolster cutout. Seems convenient
that this lock has the stamp where the L&R stamp would normally be.

I don't think these rifles are fooling any serious collectors because this latest one sold for only $10,500, which is well below what an original rifle would normally sell for. On the other hand, someone is paying a lot of money for what likely is a contemporary rifle.

Phil Meek

 

[Scota4570]

The line of the bottom of the but stock is dead straight from the triggers to the toe. That is incorrect.

I wish they had shown the muzzle. The barrel stamps are not right on fakes when you look closely. Can't tell, the picture is not good enough.

I can not imagine plunking down 10-grand without a detailed in person exam of the rifle. Then again that price is too low or a real one.

 

[crankshaft]

I understand some of the
original Hawken stamps are still out there,

and still in use.


I don't know, but originals had a "possum belly" or fish belly, on the forestock, and the rear of the lock panel was much wider than the front of the panel. those are not apparent in the photos. but I ain't no expert.

 

[Rifleman1776]

I understand some of the
original Hawken stamps are still out there,

and still in use.

Correct. There is a fellow here in Arkansas who once was able to build highly accurate Hawken replicas. In fact, John Baird once 'authenticated' one of his rifles as an original Hawken. He has a stamp purchased from the Hawken family shop auction in St. Louis with a crooked 'S'. He used to use it on rifles he built. He also has a marking gauge I tried to replicate. He is not building any longer but the stamp is still out there.

 

[plmeek]

I agree the stamp on the barrel looks suspicious. That is, what of the stamp we can see. The "ST. LOUIS" stamp appears to have been struck over the corrosion on the barrel. It is also strange why someone would have cut a dove tail through the "HAWKEN" name. The original sight would likely be where the current sight is, and the name and address stamped behind it. The filled dovetail would suggest that sometime after the rifle was made that someone moved the sight back some two inches, then later it was moved back to its original position. And the corrosion on the barrel would suggest this was done during its working life. Seems odd to me. Usually, we see sights moved further forward of their original position due to aging eyes, not backward.

 

[Captjoel]

IMHO, anyone who is wanting and willing to buy an original Hawken rifle would also expect to have written provenance detailing where the rifle has been over the years.

Just like old artistic powder horns that sell for thousands of dollars, there are way too many good aged reproductions out there.

As far as passing judgement on an old gun from just looking at it's lock, remember that locks got changed out during its period of hard use quite often. Many original locks were removed in modern times from old guns during the mid 20th century when many guns had very little collector value. Replaced with newer locks just for more reliable shooting. Old locks and many other parts of originals got separated from the guns they came off of.

Of all of the more sought after firearms in this day and age I believe that the Hawken plains rifle has been one of the most targeted for fakes and forgeries. One that needs actual background proof of its history, before it should bring the big bucks.

 

[jimirwin]

I've seen a few originals, and have built several Hawken Rocky Mountain Rifles. My best was built using 100% authentic parts from The Hawken Shop in St Louis early after it was bought from the Hawken heirs by Art Ressel. There are lots of fakes out there. And there have been many Hawken St Louis stamps made. My first look at this one says "It just ain't right". There is a slight curve to the lower butt line, but I've never seen one with anything like a perch belly. Too bad there's not a left side view of this one. The flow of the cheekpiece line thru the wrist to the tang is subtle but distinctive. The one shown more revealingly shows a straight line under the fore-end, where the Hawken "norm" is slightly swollen and rounded down. The one shown shows pretty extensive refinishing, and is, to my eye, a pretty poor value.
A friend of mine sold off the Gaines DeGraffenreid(sp?) Hawken collection (pictured on 2 facing pages in one of Baird's books) maybe 50 + years ago to see the range of styles.

 

[Dr5x]

ONE OF MY RIFLES WAS AN EXACT COPY OF AN ALLEGED ACTUAL ST LOUIS MADE HAWKEN. T THE ORIGINAL (? WAS A SPLENDID RIFLE IN SPLENDID CONDITION, IT HAD APPARENTLY BEEN WELL TAKEN CARE OF AND HAD PROBABLY NEVER LEFT ST. :OUIS.
THERE IS A SMALL WESTERN EXPANSION MUSEUM UBDER THE ST. LOUIS ARCH AND IN A GLASS CASE THERE IS A PRESENTATION ST. LOUIS HAWKEN WHICH, ODDLY, SEEMS RATHER SMALL.
ONE ASSUMES IT IS A GENUINE HAWKEN.
BUT THEN/////

DUTCH SCHOULTZ

IMHO, anyone who is wanting and willing to buy an original Hawken rifle would also expect to have written provenance detailing where the rifle has been over the years.

Just like old artistic powder horns that sell for thousands of dollars, there are way too many good aged reproductions out there.

As far as passing judgement on an old gun from just looking at it's lock, remember that locks got changed out during its period of hard use quite often. Many original locks were removed in modern times from old guns during the mid 20th century when many guns had very little collector value. Replaced with newer locks just for more reliable shooting. Old locks and many other parts of originals got separated from the guns they came off of.

Of all of the more sought after firearms in this day and age I believe that the Hawken plains rifle has been one of the most targeted for fakes and forgeries. One that needs actual background proof of its history, before it should bring the big bucks.

 

[Dr5x]

I BELIEVE ART RESSEL (SP?) WHO RAN THE HAWKEN SHOP IN ST. LOUIS IS THE PERSON WHO LENT THE ALLRGED HAWKEN T THE OZARK MOUNTAIN ARMS FOLK, THEN LOCATED IN BRANSON, MO. TO RECREATE MY COPY.
ART WAS UNDER SOME SORT OF CLOUD FOR ALLEGEDLY FAKING A FEW THINGS WHICH I NEVER EXPLORED AS HE HAD ALWAYS TREATED ME WELL AND I JUDGED THE PRODUCTS AS WHAT THEY WERE SUPOSED TO BE AND NOT BY THE REPUTATION OF THE SOURCE OF THEM..

DUTCH SCHOULTZ

I've seen a few originals, and have built several Hawken Rocky Mountain Rifles. My best was built using 100% authentic parts from The Hawken Shop in St Louis early after it was bought from the Hawken heirs by Art Ressel. There are lots of fakes out there. And there have been many Hawken St Louis stamps made. My first look at this one says "It just ain't right". There is a slight curve to the lower butt line, but I've never seen one with anything like a perch belly. Too bad there's not a left side view of this one. The flow of the cheekpiece line thru the wrist to the tang is subtle but distinctive. The one shown more revealingly shows a straight line under the fore-end, where the Hawken "norm" is slightly swollen and rounded down. The one shown shows pretty extensive refinishing, and is, to my eye, a pretty poor value.
A friend of mine sold off the Gaines DeGraffenreid(sp?) Hawken collection (pictured on 2 facing pages in one of Baird's books) maybe 50 + years ago to see the range of styles.

 

[Grenadier1758]

The Arch Museum took some liberties. The Harper's Ferry in the Corps of Discovery exhibit was plainly marked Antonio Zoli, Italy. The wanted something representative on display. I think the Hawken was behind glass and not in the open. I'm trying to remember what is on display in the renovated museum.

The Hawken Rifles built in the brothers' shop were basically built to a pattern and differences will arise. Some will be very straight on the lower line and some will exhibit a bit of the perch belly curve.

Rifles built for the local trade would often have the same architecture as the plains rifles, but the half stock rifle would have one wedge, smaller caliber of 45 or 50, iron or brass fittings.

 

[Herb]

Of 37 Hawken rifles in Jim Gordon's book "Great Gunmakers for the Early West, Volume III", all have straight comb lines, toe lines and belly lines. The only exception is the Jim Bridger rifle, which has maybe 1/16" "slight fish belly" of the toe line, as recorded on the tracing made of the rifle when it was at the Green River Rifle Works in 1978, and which I made a copy of. I handled that rifle there then, but don't remember it. Also straight are Hawkens at the museum in Helena, MT, Cheyenne, WY and Lincoln, NE which I have measured, photographed and traced. The lock on the rifle in question is an L&R lock and the triggers are L&R. They are longer than originals. The snail fit is bad. Of all the Hawkens referenced, none has such a bad fit except for Mariano Medina's. The cheek piece is not right. There are some funky looking original Hawken cheek pieces, but none that look like this one. If the lock panels on Hawken rifles are tapered, they are wider at front than the rear. Jim Bridger's is tapered, and the gunsmith achieved that by bending the tail of the lock in rather than tapering the bolster. I handled, measured and photographed this rifle at Helena. Sunday I go to Cody to measure and photograph their original Hawkens, and one which I saw some years ago which I am sure is a modern copy.

 

[Gene L]

What the rifle in question has that we don't is provenance. It's a fine looking rifle, and while I wouldn't and couldn't give 10K, someone did and was satisfied with a letter as to its authenticity. Not my money, and I'm no semi-expert on Hawken rifles. Perhaps it is, perhaps it isn't, but that ship has sailed.

 

[rich pierce]

Give-away on the lock being recent is the sear spring is made of flat spring stock as opposed to forged.

 

[brayhaven]

Of 37 Hawken rifles in Jim Gordon's book "Great Gunmakers for the Early West, Volume III", all have straight comb lines, toe lines and belly lines. The only exception is the Jim Bridger rifle, which has maybe 1/16" "slight fish belly" of the toe line, as recorded on the tracing made of the rifle when it was at the Green River Rifle Works in 1978, and which I made a copy of. I handled that rifle there then, but don't remember it. Also straight are Hawkens at the museum in Helena, MT, Cheyenne, WY and Lincoln, NE which I have measured, photographed and traced. The lock on the rifle in question is an L&R lock and the triggers are L&R. They are longer than originals. The snail fit is bad. Of all the Hawkens referenced, none has such a bad fit except for Mariano Medina's. The cheek piece is not right. There are some funky looking original Hawken cheek pieces, but none that look like this one. If the lock panels on Hawken rifles are tapered, they are wider at front than the rear. Jim Bridger's is tapered, and the gunsmith achieved that by bending the tail of the lock in rather than tapering the bolster. I handled, measured and photographed this rifle at Helena. Sunday I go to Cody to measure and photograph their original Hawkens, and one which I saw some years ago which I am sure is a modern copy.

You will enjoy that. There is a very nice display of original Hawkens at the Cody museum, including Bill Ruger’s collection. The thing that struck me about it was the differences far more than the similarities. They’re very different rifles. Always spend a day or two at the museum when traveling in the west.

 

[Herb]

Of 37 Hawken rifles in Jim Gordon's book "Great Gunmakers for the Early West, Volume III", all have straight comb lines, toe lines and belly lines. The only exception is the Jim Bridger rifle, which has maybe 1/16" "slight fish belly" of the toe line, as recorded on the tracing made of the rifle when it was at the Green River Rifle Works in 1978, and which I made a copy of. I handled that rifle there then, but don't remember it. Also straight are Hawkens at the museum in Helena, MT, Cheyenne, WY and Lincoln, NE which I have measured, photographed and traced. The lock on the rifle in question is an L&R lock and the triggers are L&R. They are longer than originals. The snail fit is bad. Of all the Hawkens referenced, none has such a bad fit except for Mariano Medina's. The cheek piece is not right. There are some funky looking original Hawken cheek pieces, but none that look like this one. If the lock panels on Hawken rifles are tapered, they are wider at front than the rear. Jim Bridger's is tapered, and the gunsmith achieved that by bending the tail of the lock in rather than tapering the bolster. I handled, measured and photographed this rifle at Helena. Sunday I go to Cody to measure and photograph their original Hawkens, and one which I saw some years ago which I am sure is a modern copy.

 

[Herb]

I thought that Gordon photo of the Medina lock looked odd. I just looked at the photos I took of the Medina rifle in Gordon's Glorieta, NM museum in 2010 and the snail fit is very close. I also looked at 32 St. Louis stamps on Hawken rifles in Gordon's book. All seem to be with the same stamp, and the one on the subject rifle is different. I don't know if it is original or a copy, but that is what I see in the rifle.

 

[4065shooter]

Herb, would you be willing to share you measurements after visiting Cody?

 

[Herb]

I'll be taking over 100 measurements and descriptions of each of the Hawken rifles available to handle, 25 or more? Yes, I can give answers to specific questions but am too lazy to, or knowledgeable as to how to, post my data.

 

[shootrj2003]

I’m no Hawken expert,my Lyman is a dead ringer to me.however I have a fowler from about 1800-1830 ,that I am rebuilding ,the stock was really in bad shape -it’s being replaced ,but the inside of the English lock by Phillips show’s no pitting or rust just old colored steel,that lock looks rusted and pitted then cleaned off .well anyway if a guy payed 10,000 for it I guess he had so much money that it doesn’t matter.I have to take out a loan for a car that costs that .I would never pay more for a real Hawken because I’d have to shoot it,to me that’s where the value in a gun is - does the dog hunt?