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swaged or shaved?

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Sandan027

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In the quest, obsession?, for information pertaining to my 1861 Navy I ran across the following. The discussion was about preventing chain fires, but chainfires notwithstanding, I'm wondering what you folks think. The proposition was that by slightly chamfering the cylinder mouths the ball would be swaged into the cylinder thereby creating as tight if not tighter fit than a sharp mouthed cylinder shvaing a ring of lead from the ball. The swaging would also create just as big if not bigger bearing surface on the ball to grap the rifling. Since the ball would also be self-centering alignment wouldn't be an issue as it might be with conicals. I think the idea makes sense. Has anybody tried this? What do you all think?
Thanks I'm looking forward to a discussion about this.
 
I have all my cylinders chamfered. It makes loading easier. All the other benefits you mentioned are, in my opinion, imaginary or inconsequential.
 
"All the other benefits you mentioned are, in my opinion, imaginary or inconsequential."

I don't know how to say it any better! I have revolvers that have chamfers and others that shave a ring and have never found any difference. If there is any difference in the loading effort I have totally missed that too.

A beveled cylinder mouth would aid in loading an elongated projectile but I would only consider using one with a beveled base in any case. I have known folks who used a Lyman beveled base bullet with good results but I'm not sure you can even get any of those molds anymore in a diameter you can use.
 
Flash Pan Dan said:
I have all my cylinders chamfered. It makes loading easier. All the other benefits you mentioned are, in my opinion, imaginary or inconsequential.

Col. Colt seemed to think they made a significant difference. But what did he know?
 
Ease of loading aside, I think the distance that the ball sits below the mouth of the cylinder is the important criteria. I have found through experimentation with my Pietta Remington Competition, the higher the ball sits the better the group.
 
Solitary Cyclist said:
Ease of loading aside, I think the distance that the ball sits below the mouth of the cylinder is the important criteria. I have found through experimentation with my Pietta Remington Competition, the higher the ball sits the better the group.

I have found the same..........
 
At one time, Col. Colt did chamfer the mouths of the cylinders chambers.

In fact, he had a Patent on chamfering the edge.

If you find his Patent you will find that it had nothing to do with loading roundballs or bullets.

In the design, the chamfer was quite large and its intended purpose (according to the Patent) was to deflect the flame from the firing chamber away from the neighboring chambers where the ball seats against the chambers bore.

This was intended to reduce the possibility of a chain fire.

Quoting from "On the application of machinery to the manufacture of rotating chambered-breech firearms and their peculiarities", by Col. Samual Colt

"...so that premature and simultaneous explosion of the charges necessarily took place. In consequence of these premature explosions it became necessary to re move the shield from over the base of the chambers, and to introduce parti tions between the nipples, or cones, to prevent the fire from spreading to and exploding the adjoining caps ; but this only partially accomplished the object. There still remained risk of explosion from the spreading of the fire laterally between the base of the barrel and the face of the chamber. To meet this danger, the metal plate which was attached to the barrel and projected over the chambers, was removed : this obviated to a certain extent, but did not altogether prevent, the simultaneous explosion of the charges ; for during a trial of the arm, by order of the American Government,* an accident occurred, from the simultaneous explosion of two chambers, which induced the Author, after much reflection, to give a slight chamfer, or bevil, to the orifice of each chamber, so as to deflect, or throw off at an outward angle, the ftre which expanded laterally across their mouths. The reason for this alteration was, that when the lateral Are met the rectangular edge of the orifice of the chambers, the angle of incidence being equal to the angle of reflection, the fire was conducted downwards or inwards to the charge ; but when the flame struck the chamfered edge, it was directed outwards away from the charge. This action is shown in woodcut (Fig. 1), and unimportant as this alteration may appear, it has proved so effectual, that if loose powder is placed over the charge, in the adjoining chambers, it is not now ignited when the pistol is discharged. These and other improvements have brought the fire-arm to its present safe and effective condition, and the Author believes that no casualty can occur, nor that more than one charge can be fired at one time if the metal is sound and the arm is properly loaded."

(page 8 of 36 in this link):
https://books.google.com/books/reader?id=QnkDAAAAYAAJ&printsec=frontcover&output=reader&pg=GBS.PR3

It might be noted that this method of addressing the chain fire issue was early in the creation of the Colt pistol (1836-1842).

By the time the Colt 1851 Navy was being made, most of the cylinders did not have chamfered chambered mouths.
 
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Oh my gosh NO, don't restart the front versus rear chain fire debate!

OK, sorry, had to say that, couldn't resist, many apologies.
What I'd like to convey is about my own 1861 (purchased 1970's). The absolute incredible gong ringing, best shooting, crooked contest running person worrying load was a conical literally swaged into the chambers on top of the powder.
The chambers were the right size for the barrel groove diameter. The rack and pinion loading lever is designed to swage the elongated bullet into the chambers. That's why Colt made it that way, for fighting. Or in my case for ringing gongs and making good ol' boys nervous about whether they could overcome ability with guile. But, that was forty years ago and now nothing but another tall tale.
 
I'm experimenting. I've been working with different loads. Now that you mentioned the ball sitting high, I guess I'll add filler to the different powder charges to keep the ball height as consistent as possible.
 
Since you are experimenting, try using 2F instead of 3F. I’ve been using it in my Pietta New Armies for a while and, in my opinion it works much better. You should work your load up to find a good and safe load for your gun, but in mine I am shooting 38 grains of 2F. No filler needed. Accuracy is fantastic with a most satisfying BOOM.
 
I think that'll be a good experiment. I have about a pound of Goex FFg. I'll give it a shot (haha). I doubt I'll get 36 grains in my .36 but accuracy and that "most satisfying BOOM" are critical.
 
Oh my gosh NO, don't restart the front versus rear chain fire debate!

Oh, please, let us :stir: and :dead:

Actually, on today's repros, grease must be used or a lubed wad behind the ball. Swaged, camfered or not. Chainfires can happen. Do whatever is necessary to prevent.
 
You will find that 2F shoots softer and you can load more of it and fill up the cylinder a bit more. Currently I am experimenting with filling the cylinder to the mouth and then compressing it with the ball. So far it is looking good. I am trying to see if there is going to be a fouling problem over a day of CAS shooting.
 
Great post, Zonie!

With so much speculation about the cause of crossfires, Colt's own thinking about causes and possible solutions is priceless. Thank you.
 
I shot about 5 cylinders of both FFFg and FFg both yesterday. I have to say I found the FFg just as accurate as the FFFg. Granted I dind't do much pure accuracy testing, but @ 22 grs. either FF or FFF the revolver shot about 3.5-4" at 25 yds offhand two hand hold. The Colt sights are interesting, but once you get used to them not as bad as I thought they would be. That revolver is so much fun to shoot, I'm having trouble settling down and applying myself to accuracy testing because of the high fun factor.
Here's a question, is there a trick or any advice on starting the over powder wad? I use my thumb and it seems like 5 our of 6 wads go on cock-eyed (at an angle to the cylinder bore) and I end up using my nipple pick to "flatten" them out in the cylinder. If they are started cock-eyed and I try to use the loading lever that makes it even worse.
 
I wish I could help you with the wad seating problem, but I have never used them. I just fill the cylinder to the top with powder compress it with the ball, cap and shoot it. On really dry days I will smear little DGL lube on top of the ball.
 
Appreciate it Flash Pan Dan. No fouling problems with out a wad between powder and ball?
 
I load the powder and wads into the chambers off the pistol frame. When it comes time to seat the wads I use an unsharpened pencil or the back of a bic pen to push the wads down in place nice and true. Once I have all chambers loaded with powder and wads I put the gun together then seat the bullets.
 
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