Swiss 1.5g Powder

[GreyWhiskers]

A buddy informed me he had a bunch of powder he wanted to sell. A good bunch of it is Swiss 1.5g. What is it comparable to? GW

 

[Walks with fire]

Grain size compares to Goex 2f and power level would be close to Goex 3f.

 

[Pete Gaimari]

I'm using Swiss 2F. That's like 2.5F with the power of? It feels stronger than 777.

 

[paulvallandigham]

The Swiss are apparently using Metric sized "screens" to measure their powders, and the result is a small granular size than American powders. Since combustion goes from the outside of the surface of a granule INWARD, the smaller granular sized powder Burns FASTER, and HOTTER.

You can increase the burn speed of American Goex powder by using an OP wad over the powder. Pressure is increase, and with that, the temperature in the breech is also increased, creating better burning of the powder, and more complete burning of the carbon. Velocity goes UP faster than it does with comparable Swiss powder, altho Both powders burn hotter if an OP wad is used. The difference between velocities for the two parties drops dramatically when that OP wad is used with GOEX powder.

It also helps to screen your powder to remove any "clumps", or larger sized granules. Today's Goex seems to have fewer problems in this area, than it used to, however. :hmm: :thumbsup:

 

[Pete Gaimari]

I've read that Swiss uses Alder trees for the charcoal. Does that make it hotter?

I'll say one thing for Swiss. It's a really nice looking powder. Very uniform and polished.

 

[necchi]

IMHO, the 1.5 is like our 2F, while their 2F is more like 3F. Swiss is a "sporting grade" powder and hotter and faster. It's one of the problems most have trying to use the stuff, they expect it to act like our more common BP's, and it's simply not the same kind of stuff. Charges can be dropped 10-15% to get comparable results. (the lowered charges help the pound go father in it's use, thus negating the "cost's too much" argument)

The charchol has to do with burn rate, fouling deposits, hygroscopic issues and more,,it IS science. Some modern replicants use orange peel for the carbon componant then claim ascorbic acid !

 

[Jason Lewis]

Swiss powder uses charcoal from alder trees which has a much higher O2 contents which is what makes it burn hotter. Swiss 1.5F is the most favored BP for long range ML and BL, i've also found it usefull in BP10ga as well. Swiss is the closest thing we have to the sporting powders of the 19th century, however some suspect that compared to those it would be a poor comparison. GOEX, is still a good powder but is closer to the 19th century musket powders of which dupont used to specialise in which eventually became GOEX when dupont got out of the game in the 1920's i believe. i'm not sure if this has changed or not but GOEX used to use almond hulls for their charcoal source. Goex express powders are closer to Swiss in terms of velocity for a given load but burn aborently dirty in my opinion.

 

[Bill Hall]

When I first started this sport back in the 70's, Dupont was the only powder I could find. I believe I was still buying it into the early 80's, but I may be wrong. The first can I ever bought cost just under $4. I wonder if they got out of the biz way back when, then jumped back in when there was a resurgence in popularity during the 70's.

In my opinion, Swiss is the greatest stuff in the whole wide world. Powerful and clean burning. My only problen with it is that I love it so much that I shoot it up too fast. So I guess that skews my cost vs. volume balance if measured in shooting days per pound. :rotf: Bill

 

[Larry Pletcher]

I've read that Swiss uses Alder trees for the charcoal. Does that make it hotter?

I'll say one thing for Swiss. It's a really nice looking powder. Very uniform and polished.

According to Mr. Knight, Swiss do use alder and remove the bark which gets rid of impurities. They grind their charcoal much finer than Goex. Bill suggested an experiment that proved the difference in charcoal size to me.

The last I heard Goex does not use alder, do not remove bark, and do not grind charcoal as finely.
Regards,
Pletch

 

[GreyWhiskers]

I didn't find a bunch of load info but it looks like 1.5 will work well in my 10gauge. GW

 

[paulvallandigham]

My brother bought some Swiss powder at Friendship a few years ago- about as cheap as you could buy it anywhere. He did some side by side comparison testing, with one of his .40 caliber rifles. The results he got when he screened his Goex 3Fg powder, and then used OP wads ( Walter's Vegetable Fiber wads to be exact) with both powders in the same gun was less than 100 fps difference in MV. between the two powder charges. Without the OP wad, there was a difference of close to 300 fps. MV!

When he compared the price per round fired, including the OP wad, he could NOT justify the difference in cost of the Swiss powder for the results achieved. ( He got similar groups with both powders using the same Ball,patch and OP wad.)

The cost per round was about 1/3 higher with the Swiss powder, even when he reduced the powder charge to EQUAL the same velocity he got from his Goex powder. Obviously, reducing the amount of Swiss powder to equal the velocity from the Goex powder saved him a bit of money per shot. But, he figured it out, and the savings was less than 1 cent per round.

Now, his work was with his .40 caliber rifle. The relative proportions may be different with larger calibers, and increase the amount of savings. Pete is basically a target shooter, and the largest caliber rifle he now owns is a .45. He owns some smoothbores, but that is "apples vs. Oranges", trying to compare anything involved in shooting those compared to shooting rifles.

Pete decided to save his EXPENSIVE Swiss powder for target matches, and use his Goex for his practice shooting.

The big result( and unexpected consequences) of the experiment was his conviction to use OP wads in his other rifles, and not rely on the patch wrapped around his ball to seal the bore consistently. The Dramatic reduction in the SDV, using both powders, simply proved beyond all doubt that using a properly sized OP wad is going to give superior accuracy.

Personally, from watching Pete shoot, using the Swiss powder, I have NO hesitation in telling anyone that it is great stuff. The Swiss have found out how to make a superior powder.

But, the cost of the stuff is NOT Justified by any substantial increase in accuracy when compared to the cheaper Goex, and other similar brands of powder available from Europe( Wano, Schuetzen,etc.) Only serious bench rest target shooters can gain any advantage from using the powder, so I cannot recommend people who plink, and hunt with their guns spend the extra money buying this superior, if expensive, powder.

Oh, We also found that when the OP wad is used with both powders, that there simply is no difference in how easy it is to clean the barrel between shots. Not in the amount of residue that comes out on the patches, and not in how the residue "Feels" in the bore, when the you run a cleaning patch down the barrel.

I had the chance to "feel" the residue from both powders, during one shooting session, and I was surprised that the Goex burned so completely. There was a "felt difference" in the residue when the OP wad is NOT USED, proving again the value of using a good OP wad( or filler) over the powder charge.

 

[Jason Lewis]

1.5F will work great in your 10ga. check out my post in the smoothbore forum. 10ga fowler range session.

 

[zrifleman]

Paul---Thank you for reaffirming what I found to be true about over powder wads. I have been using wool felt wads with conicals in my muzzleloaders for several years. Acurracy for me and my shooting buddies is better and barrels stay cleaner. I can shoot my .54 cal Hawken, 1-34 twist, all day long without cleaning. I use a Lyman plains bullet, sized to bore diameter. I also use wool felt wads in my BPCR's, as a gas check. A friend who has a considerable library says that the English used wool felt wads as a normal loading procedure and when they discontinued that and went to a card wad they had more fouling problems.

 

[paulvallandigham]

MY brother, PeterV" here, turned me on to using wads both in Cartridge BP guns, and then in MLer rifles. I had some experience with them in a Dbl shotgun before he got into shooting his, and we worked on testing OP wads together. You have him to thank for that confirmation- not me.

He opened my eyes, bought me some fiber wads to try in my .50, and watched me fire the first few shots with the OP wads one day up at Rockford, Illinois. I found that with the OP wad, my POI was moved upwards, at 50 yds. by about 1 inch. I now have to work on reducing my standard charge of 60 grains of 2Fg powder so that the OP wad load shoots to the POA of my sights, which are fixed.

I don't mind the saving of money by being able to shoot lighter powder charges and obtain the same velocity and POI. :grin: :thumbsup:

Pete is the one who first noticed the higher velocities, consistently on his chronograph, as well as the substantially lower SDV.

We both compared "Notes" by phone and found that we both liked the fact that using OP wads with Goex made the barrels much easier to clean, and the residue left in my barrel shooting 2Fg powder was about the same as when I shot 3Fg powder. The powder was burning more completely, resulting in less carbon residue. He gave me his test data on his .40 cal. testing comparing Goex 3F, and Swiss powder( whatever is the comparable size- I've forgotten which), both with and without the OP wads, because he was so surprised that using the OP wads reduced the difference in velocity so much, between the two brands of powder. :hmm: :hatsoff:

 

[zrifleman]

Paul--When I traded for a "problem" .54 cal custom ML several years ago, I found it just wasn,t consistantly accurate. It has a 1-34 twist. Ed Rayl recommended that I try the Lyman Plains bullet with a wool felt wad. Along with sizing bullets to bore diameter, using a platinum lined nipple made by Rick Weber and using 90 grs of 3 fg, I can shoot accurately all day without cleaning or having a problem loading. The wool felt wad gives the same results in my P. Gibbs. I regularly load my 45-90 with felt wads for clean burning accuracy.

 

[Dphar]

A buddy informed me he had a bunch of powder he wanted to sell. A good bunch of it is Swiss 1.5g. What is it comparable to? GW

It gives very good accuracy in RB rifles, BPCRs and should work well in ML shotguns.
Its going to give better velocity than FF Goex I suspect. A friend says that its about equal to FF Swiss.
I use it in my 45-100. But use FF or FFF in my RB hunting rifles.
Dan

 

[Dphar]

I've read that Swiss uses Alder trees for the charcoal. Does that make it hotter?

I'll say one thing for Swiss. It's a really nice looking powder. Very uniform and polished.

Charcoal quality is very important in BP. For example when C&H could not longer get the wood from Spain to make their Diamond Grain powder it went off the market. The wood its made from, the WAY the charcoal is made is critical in making a premium BP and Swiss is the only true premium powder on the market.
Also Swiss in not coated with incombustible graphite.
The polish is simply from making the powder right and polishing it carefully.
Rub some Goex on your palm then do the same with Swiss. Old test for graphite on the powder.
Dan

 

[Larry Pletcher]

Swiss powder uses charcoal from alder trees which has a much higher O2 contents which is what makes it burn hotter.

The oxygen in the black powder formula comes from the Potassium nitrate (KNO3) and not from the charcoal. Black thorn alder makes excellent charcosl, especially using the techniques the Swiss use. However charcoal made from alder is basically carbon.

Here are two equations:

2(KNO3) + S + 3C → K2S + N2 + 3(CO2)

10(KNO3) + 3S + 8C → 2(K2CO3) + 3(K2SO4) + 6(O2) + 5(N2)

These are simplified but show the source of the oxygen comes from potassium nitrate. (I added the ( ) to make these easier to read; can't do subscript for molecules.)

Regards,
Pletch

 

[Dphar]

Swiss powder uses charcoal from alder trees which has a much higher O2 contents which is what makes it burn hotter. .

This is really Mad Monk territory but I feel like shooting my mouth off this AM waiting for a guy to bring by a piece of curly maple.
As Pletch pointed out charcoal does not supply the O2. Its the fuel. Basically Potassium Nitrate makes the 02 by melting and the sulfur makes it easier to light the charcoal.
Almost any charcoal will work in BP and it will go bang or poof. But there is more to propellant powders than this. They need to be consistent shot to shot, lot to lot and produce a low level of fouling and good velocity for a given charge weight.
Carbon is the base fuel but there are other components of the charcoal that are critical to making good powder. The creosote content for example.
The proper level of creosote is what makes a "moist burning powder". Making the charcoal from a soft wood makes it easier to break the char down to a fine particle size in the milling process. Over burn the charcoal or use the WRONG WOOD or improperly prepared wood and the creosote is at less than optimum.
This is why the makers of premium BP were so finicky about all the components. Burning their own charcoal etc. Sodium Nitrate will make powder and was used in blasting powder, but its very detrimental to good propellant powder so the Potassium Nitrate must be pure.
I would have to hit the books but IIRC C&H used dogwood or alder cut in Spain at a specific time of the year in their "Diamond Grain" powder. Different seasons mean the wood will have different sap contents ect and this will change the characteristics of the charcoal and this will result in differences in how the powder performs in the gun. Velocity, consistency, the level of fouling and how if is deposited in the bore etc etc.
Now fast forward from 1880s America where we had a number of powder makers making excellent powders to 1910 or so when Dupont had bought up and destroyed the powder making in America. By the time they were forced to divest in an anti-trust action nobody in America was making a true propellant grade BP. The military became the primary user, it was used for fuses and boosters. A powder that will give perfectly adequate results as a fuze or a booster charge for artillery propellants will not necessarily give the performance of the more carefully made and more expensive powders used in the late 19th century by discriminating shooters.
The inability to recreate the velocities obtained by the old premium powders with the only available powder in the 1960s was a result of using what was in reality military fuze/booster powder. Since the only powder available at the time was powder made in America for Gov't contracts or imported powder that in one case was essentially a blasting grind that was very slow and needed almost double the charge of American powders to get similar velocity.
Swiss performs better and costs more because they use premium components, they carefully mill the powder to properly incorporate the three components and reduce the particle size. They then press it to a specific density and carefully dry and polish the powder.
Anyone here could likely take a mortar and pestle and make gunpowder good enough to kill him and burn down his house. But it will not perform like powder that is specifically made to give superior performance when used as a small arms propellant.
I believe Swiss uses the 76% Nitrate formula which increases the 02. They grind the components long enough to produce a fine particle size and assume they are well mixed together. As a result. Just like in the 1880s-90s premium powders they produce a powder that gives excellent velocity for the charge weight, very clean burning AND I can buy a case of powder one year and another the next and expect to get the same performance.
This means little to the casual shooter but teh competition shooter shooting BPCR silhouette or Long Range its a MAJOR PITA and could require shooting 5-6 different primers perhaps 20-50 shots each, several compression levels etc etc to get the accuracy back if it was even possible.
So a lot of powder was burned just to get a competitive load again with a powder that is apparently identical in all respects to the stuff that came from a can that is identical except for the lot number.
So there ARE reasons to use Swiss.
The competition and some other factors have resulted in a net improvement across the board in the available powders in the US. So buying a really poor powder in unlikely though it was not uncommon 20 years ago to have a pound of powder that was only about 1/2 or 2/3s granulated the rest being fines. For example pour a 70 grain charge through a drop tube and having a 1/4" of dust on top of the charge since the fines fall slower than the granules. Yes, I have had this happen many times. The rest of the pound was thrown out and another pound opened and used until the fines become a problem again.
Fortunately I think those days are past.
It was possible to loose a significant part of a case of powder in this way.


Dan

 

[Pete Gaimari]

Yet, there is still a group on this forum who claim Goex is just as good.