target load for 1860 Army

[irataylor]

I am trying various loads to get the best
accuracy with my 60 army at 25 yrds.
Shooting 25 grns FFFg with a wonderwad
is not so good.
I was thinking of using 12 grs FFFg with
12 grs cornmeal. Should I put a cardboard
wad over the bp then the cornmeal then the
wonderwad? I have an old wad cutter I used to
use in my BP cartridge days, so I could punch
out thin cardboard wads, no problem (used to
use the milk carton wads in the 45/70 sharps
I had). Or can I just leave out the cardboard
wad and put the cornmeal over the powder?

Any thoughts or experience on this?

I am also using 454 rb's, my manual says use
451.

My previous experience with a Walker (some 10
years ago) is you need to get the ball loaded
as close to the top of the cylinder for accuracy.

Any inputs would be greatly appreciated.

 

[Blizzard of '93]

yes it is important for accuracy to have the ball/slug as near the top of the chamber as possible. should use a cardboard button atop powder, I use them myself. 25 grs. wasn't good? shoots good in my '58 Rem, but each gun likes it's own I suppose. might try 19 or 20 grs I think 12 is way too low. good luck.

 

[irataylor]

I recently got this pistol at a gun show. It was supposed to be NIB. When I got home, I noticed that the box said 51 Colt Navy 44 cal. But it is a 80 army, got the wrong box. It had two cylinders, one had the navy scene engraving the other was plain (no engraving). The plain cylinder is the one that was in the pistol. It fits the pistol well. The other cylinder is deeply scratched along where it indexes (I don't know the right terminology). Also it shows wear on the face of the cylinder. I am happy with the fit of the plain cylinder, somehow for some reason the cylinder was replaced.

 

[Dave Rosenthal]

Somewhere between 20-25 grains is the "sweet spot" in most smaller revolvers. This has been proven in numerous competitions that I've been a part of. Using a real small charge means that the wind will have more of an effect on the ball before it gets to the target. It's also more tedious to load cereal to bring the ball up to the end of the cylinder. If I had to, I would just use more than one wonder-wad over the smaller charge, thus reducing the variable of how the cereal lays in the cylinder, especially in the cold!

What kind of results are you getting with 25 grains? I'm surprised that this isn't somewhat acceptable. Maybe the replacement cylinder doesn't exactly fit the revolver right.

Dave

 

[irataylor]

I probably need to slow down and give myself more time to work on getting used to loading this pistol. It is probably variables in my loading that may be contributing somewhat. The info I had from over 10 years ago put alot of weight on using cornmeal/cream of wheat with small loads. I have great confidence in the wisdom I have encountered on this forum. So I will continue to try the 20-25 grs and see if I can find the sweet spot.

I am using an upright loading stand. My pistol is a navy arms (pietta) made in 2000.

 

[mykeal]

You may have identified the problem - consistency in loading technique is most important to getting consistent (small groups) results. Be sure you are measuring the same way each time; if you tap the measure to settle the load once, do it every time). Use the same force in seating the ball each time.
Etc.

 

[Dave Rosenthal]

Weighing each charge at home and then pouring them into separate tubes is the way to success! Especially with the wind to worry about blowing powder all of everything!

Keep everything the same, right down to the amount of pressure you seat the ball with. Even the brand of caps plays a part in where the groups wind-up on the paper!

Only attempt to alter one variable at a time while you are "working-up" a load for the revolver. Not flinching as the hammer falls onto the cap is another problem area for some shooters, even those that are decent centerfire shots...BP takes some getting used to!

Let us all know how you make-out with the recommended loading of 25 grains.

Chat with you soon,

Dave

 

[Mike 56]

My 51 Colt and 58 Rem both like 23gr Goex fff (38sp case filled Level) felt wads, chambers greased with Crisco. I know i don't need the Crisco but keeps the fouling nice and soft and both guns shoot well loaded like this so i don't want to change anything.

Mike

 

[Long Johns Wolf]

This 2nd "plain cylinder" might indicate it is a Belgian Colt Army, i. e. "1960 NEW MODEL ARMY" written on the barrel. If that is the case and if is an earlier model, i. e. serial below around 8xxx, it will probably prefer .451 ball. If it is a later S/N pistol the ideal ball size for best accuracy is .457. In line with market demand the Belgians seem to have changed the specs of this pistol during the 1960s.
Long Johns Wolf

 

[irataylor]

The best group I got today was with 25 grs. I got a 6 inch group 10 shots at 25 yards. I discovered part of my problem is the balls I am using, they are traditions. I noticed that sometimes when I seated the ball, no lead shaving. These balls are not consistent at all. I usually use hornaday balls, but these were available from bass pro shop. Also when I was cleaning up today, I noticed a ring in the lands about an inch to and inch and 1/2 from the end of the barrel. So I am not a happy camper, just hope I don't meet up with the guy who sold me this pistol in the near future. It was supposed to be NIB, but obviously wasn't, so I don't believe could expect it to be under warranty from navy arms. You win some and some you don't.

 

[Dave Rosenthal]

A 6" group at 25 yards is darn near respectable from a revolver! Make sure that you "shave-off" a slight ring of lead as you seat the balls each time in each chamber the same way! Save those other balls for real close work, or something like a novelty shoot where all you have to do is to hit a balloon a few yards away. Stick with the Hornady's.

Are you using .454's or the smaller .451's? If you're using the .451's and not getting the little lead ring as you seat the balls in the chambers, it would help you alot to switch to .454's or even .457's depending upon the diameter of the chambers in the cylinder.

Once you get the hang of the loading process and narrow everything down as far as the variables go, you'll be able to expect those 6" groups to tighten-up even more, with nothing out of the black at 25 yards if you do your part!

Keep up the good work and let us all know how you're doing!

Dave

 

[mazo kid]

Uh oh, sounds like your NIB revolver somehow met up with a "non existent" bore obstruction??!!

 

[irataylor]

What would cause a bore obstruction? What would be the symptoms of such? I just want to be sure it wasn't something I did. I wasn't looking that closely at the barrel earlier, so I did not
notice the "ring" until now. Just wondering if I did it....

 

[Rebel]

A ball loaded with no powder that lodged in the barrel would cause and obstruction. But you should have noticed it when you fired the next shot if you didn't notice the lack of noise and recoil.

 

[irataylor]

Ok, that I did not do...

 

[irataylor]

I have ordered hornady balls from TOW, so that should resolve the inconsistent ammo problem. I installed the original cylinder and it fits much better than the "plain" cylinder. This should make it shoot more accurately, but I won't be able to test until I get the new ammo. Thanks to all for the help, I will let y'all know how it comes out. I am getting the colt bug, now I want a 51 navy. (I hope Santa has a login to this forum)

 

[Doc Arroyo]

What would cause a bore obstruction? What would be the symptoms of such? I just want to be sure it wasn't something I did. I wasn't looking that closely at the barrel earlier, so I did not
notice the "ring" until now. Just wondering if I did it....

This is the main reason to stay away from really light loads. I dabble in cowboy action shooting, and to see some of those fellows reducing their loads to reduce recoil and go faster....well it borders between ridiculous and dangerous.

Both of my 1860's have been happy and accurate with 25gr loads. I do use wonderwads. I have also opened up the sight notch in the hammer to get a clearer picture of the front sight.

On the cylinder swap, get a dowel that is near bore size. Sliding it down the bore and into the cylinder chambers can let you know if there is anything misaligned.

 

[Dave Rosenthal]

Good advice...it (the dowel) will also be able to be used as a scraper to see if there's a lead deposit near/at the ring site.

Dave

 

[prowler]

I have two of the RCBS Lil' Dandy powder measures. I have a number of the rotors, each one drilled out for a specific volume of FFFg or corn meal. For SASS, I put the pistol in the loading stand, drop my powder from the measure in each of the cylinders, then drop corn meal from the other measure,if I am using a load that requires filler. Put in my wads and seat the balls. Just like a production line. The whole process is very accurate and consistent for dropping the correct charges. I made a small extention for the powder measures to get into the cylinders easily. I can easily load my 1860's, Rem 58's, or ROA's in under two minutes. Best of all, no premeasuring necessary and no spillage.

 

[Dave Rosenthal]

Prowler,

It sounds like you have a system that works well for your application :thumbsup: . My only concern would be a windy situation where powder is blowing off of the scale as it's being poured and measured. The little red plastic tubes from RMC Products in PA are just soft enough to pinch. Even in the wind, mostly all of the powder goes into the chambers

Dave