Texas legal shotgun vs. rifle

[Lonegun1894]

I have a goofy question for y'all. Now this is in regards to hunting a Corps or Engineers are in Texas, that allows shotgun hunting only. Now some here may disagree with me, but just for the sake of :stir: , bear with me. Now the regs at this particular area state that I can legally use a modern or ML shotgun, but NOT a rifle. Here is the catch. They do allow a modern rifled shotgun firing any shell a hunter wants to use, including sabot rounds, which bring the performance up to rifle levels out to at least 200 yards. However, as you will see below, they allow the state law to decide what is a rifle and what is a shotgun, but there is no mention made by either the State or COE that the ML shotgun must be smooth-bored. I also contacted TPWD and was informed that there is no minimum or maximum limit on how many pellets a shotgun may fire at one time, or any limitation on the size, shape, ect of the shot contained in a shell to be fired by a shotgun. So, purely legally speaking and based on the definitions listed below and the information on the shot provided, what would there be to prevent a hunter from taking, say a .50 and restamping it as a "37ga" or a .54 and restamping it as a "28ga" and just calling them a "slug gun"? Here is my idea, or maybe I should say my reason for questioning the regs and the reasons behind them. A modern rifle is effective far beyond anything any of us would dream of doing with a ML firing a PRB, at least distance wise. So I can understand the regs in terms of the perceived added safety by not allowing a modern rifle, even if I disagree with the resulting prohibition as I believe that a rifle is less likely to ricochet and cause a whole new set of problems that way. Anyway, a shotgun, firing a foster-type slug as is common today, has close to the same maximum range as a PRB, so is equally safe/unsafe (depending on which side of the coin you choose to look at it from). However, the modern sabot slug, which is allowed by this same reg, has a much longer range (although not the same as a modern rifle) and could potentially be much more dangerous than a PRB just due to the added maximum range. Wouldn't you agree, or am I missing something here, because if so, please educate me. I would call the local COE for clarification, but last time I tried, I was informed that they don't care what the regs say and that they do not allow a ML, because you can load a ball into it and that a PRB has a much longer range than anything you can fire out of a shotgun, that I they recommend buckshot for rabbits and squirrel so the animals don't suffer, and that I should use birdshot for deer because the increased number of shot in the shell increases the probability of a solid hit in the vitals so the deer doesn't suffer and can be harvested quickly and humanely. Now, I was told this by a person who was manning the desk, but was insistent that this information came from the head ranger, so it had to be correct. This same person refused to get the Ranger on the line for me because she had double-checked with the ranger to make sure she had this correct. :rotf: Now, I am pretty sure the Ranger must have been having a little fun at her expense, but this is what I am dealing with locally. So anyway, the legal definitions are attached below, and please tell me your thoughts now that I have poked this hornet's nest with the biggest stick I could find. Now for the sake of no one thinking I am planning on actually doing this, I am not, as I have a .54 smooth-bore flinter that I am planning on using, but would like your thoughts on this just as a brain exercise, and to have something to chew over around this camp fire we have here on the Forum. So what say ye fine ladies and gentlemen?





from the COE regs which can be found at http://media.swf.usace.army.mil/pubdata/ops/recnres/HUNT_GUIDE12-13.pdf , here is the ML shotgun reference:


e. Muzzleloaders: Muzzle-loading shotguns may be used at any lake which allows the use of

a conventional legal shotgun as defined by state law. Muzzle-loading rifles may be used only at

Lake O’ the Pines, Town Bluff, Sam Rayburn, and Wright Patman Lakes as stated in the Lake

Information section of this guide.



Now see where it says "as defined by state law"? Going to go to TPWD definitions next...



Muzzleloader: Any firearm that is loaded only through the muzzle. Note: A cap and ball firearm in which the powder and ball are loaded into a cylinder is not a muzzleloader. Muzzleloader deer seasons are restricted to muzzleloading firearms only.



and...




Legal Shotgun: Shotguns not larger than 10 gauge, fired from the shoulder, and incapable of holding more than three shells (shotguns capable of holding more than three shells must be plugged with a one-piece filler which is incapable of removal without disassembling the gun, so the gun’s total capacity does not exceed three shells).

 

[Moose Guide]

what would there be to prevent a hunter from taking, say a .50 and restamping it as a "37ga" or a .54 and restamping it as a "28ga" and just calling them a "slug gun"?

Restamping the barrel will not change the fact that the barrel is still rifled, it would be a 37 ga. rifle and still not legal to use in a shotgun season!

 

[Lonegun1894]

That's part of what is causing my confusion, or should I say, trying to figure out what they think the difference is. COE says any shotgun that the State considers legal, IS legal. And the State allows RIFLED shotguns, so a rifled bore is NOT a disqualification for it to be considered a "shotgun". I have been reading these regs and on a piece of notebook paper made columns trying to figure out what characteristics are allowed on both, and which are only allowed one one or the other, and came up with not a single thing that one can have while the other can't. I started with the idea that shotguns are designed to fire small shot, and rifles were for single projectiles, and then started thinking and finally got curious as to what is supposed to be the difference in legal terms so I can follow the law while using various MLs. The more I read through the regs, the more I wondered how exactly these regs apply when using a ML. Obviously, they are more aimed at modern firearms, but they also allow MLs, and I would like to know where the line actually is so I don't cross it, while also not handicapping myself when compared to a modern hunter more than I have to. I mean, before this, they said a shotgun had to be smoothbore, so I figured the playing field was even. But now that they allow rifled shotguns on COE land, many of which can stay on a pie plate out to 200+ yards, I keep thinking that a side-lock ML rifle is still a handicap when compared to one of these guns. And the modern rifled shotgun is more of a large bore rifle anyway, than a true shotgun as most of us grew up thinking of it, know what I mean?

The only things that I found, basically boil down to, for example, a weapon using ammo marked "12ga" is a shotgun, regardless of if it is birdshot or a slug, rifled or smoothbore. By the same terms, any long barreled weapon using, say, .30-30 Winchester ammo, is a rifle. Easy enough to figure out when using ammunition that is contained in a metallic case and marked with the caliber, even though I have seen .22LR rifle designs which were intentionally made smoothbore by the manufacturer to use as shotguns with the .22 shotshells for garden pest control at close range. I have seen a .30-30 built the same way, but have never seen a .30-30 "shot shell". Once again, with modern "fixed" ammo, this makes sense, but when applied to a ML, it leaved gaps in the regs that leave room for us to either use or get ourselves in some serious trouble with, since the regs really aren't clear in this case.

 

[zimmerstutzen]

Darn legiscritters.

They keep making idiot determinations that cross the traditional common sense definitions.

A long gun with a rifled bore is a rifle, not a shotgun.

A shotgun fires shot not bullets.


I always thought it a was a simple distinction.

PA has done similar. A 72 caliber centerfire rifle is legal for deer in parts of PA because it fires a 12 ga slug cartridge. But standard caliber rifles are not legal because they call the 72 caliber rifle a rifled shot gun instead of what it really is.

 

[Lonegun1894]

That's exactly what I always thought too, and it seemed VERY simple to me--til I read the regs! Go figure. I mean, we all know that shotguns are mainly for shot, and can fire a slug/RB too, but then they started rifling them and got me all kinds of confused. About ten years ago, I bought a shotgun (modern, sorry) that came with a smoothbore and a heavy rifled slug barrel. I hadn't used the rifled barrel, but reading these regs made me wonder so I did a little experimenting with it. Now this was using handloads because there is no way I could afford to do this with factory prices nowadays, but this thing came with a 3-9x40 scope, so I sighted it in at 25yds and started moving back in 25yd increments, adjusting the scope for drop with each change as needed. This thing stayed on the pie plates out to 325yds!!! I didn't start missing til I set the targets out at 350yds. I have done a LOT of long range shooting with modern rifles, and this would be an easy shot with a modern rifle, but this thing is supposed to be a shotgun, a short range weapon. I know I can't do this with my MLs with iron sights consistently--I have tried. Yes, I got lucky a few times, but it was a low percentage. With this .72 rifle, it was 100% til 325yds, and dropped off to 80% at 350yds, 50% at 375yds, and 20% at 400yds. So this load falls apart somewhere between 325 and 350yds. All shooting was prone and over a backpack with this test for the sake of the stability allowed, but I never expected these kinds of results. And it made me wonder about what they were thinking with the regs as they're written. I mean, I don't think a smoothbore modern shotgun firing a RB or rifled slug offers much if any advantage over a ML smoothbore firing a RB. However, these rifled shotguns are shotguns in legal classification only. I wouldn't use this gun out to this kind of range in the field because of the drop involved and knowing the range is critical, because a 25yd mistake on range estimation gave a clean miss each time I tried it past 250yds, but with modern range finders available, this kind of shooting is very possible for someone willing to do a little testing and practice. Sorry for the drift, because I am not trying to make this about modern guns at all, but since the regs involved are written in such as way as to be geared more towards modern and then applying the same standards to MLs, I don't know how else to approach this to figure out exactly where the line is and what exactly is or is not legal. I mean, it almost seems to me that in this case at least, the only thing that determines weather my ML is legal or not is weather I call it a rifle or a shotgun and marki it as one or the other ( or possibly leave it unmarked so I can call it what I want to fit my needs for a particular hunt). Now, I am not talking about using a modern or ML "slug gun" for dove or ducks, but only for things where it is appropriate and legal to fire a single projectile, such as deer or hog hunting. This really makes me wonder what the legislators were thinking, and also if this is an advantage or disadvantage to us all that they apparently don't know the difference so can't screw it up more than they have. I just wish they would have been more clear so us non-lawyer-types could understand these things more easily. I mean, I hate to say it, but just reading the regs, when using a ML, there is no difference at all between a ML rifle and a ML shotgun.