The forgotten .45

[Alberta Black]

Does anyone hunt with a .45 cal rifle. Most of the posts I see are for .32's, .36's and 50's and up. I am a traditional shooter but would be interested in some feedback from the inline folks. My first bp rifle was an investarms .45 cal Hawken 25 years ago.

looking forward to your input.

AB

 

[Ohio Joe]

I use a traditional .45 Dickert to hunt deer and antelope with. Actually I have one in flint and one in percussion.

I don't know about those inlines. Accuracy has always been the most important thing to me with a hunting rifle and there's no way to get that pin point accuracy with those modern inlines even if they throw a scope on 'em. That's just manufacturers hype in my opinion.

When it comes to muzzleloaders, I don't see where it is possible to improve on the traditional style. The patched roundball is still the most accurate out to 100 yards and that's plenty far for hunting with any firearm :imo: :thumbsup:

 

[Tahquamenon]

I've always admired the 45 but for some reason never got one. I've got a 36, a slew of 50's a few 54's and a 58. Inlines, cap and flintlock.

I recently picked up a T/C Hawken in 45. My first ever 45 caliber.

I love it. What a sweet shooter. I've only been shooting PRB so far and during small game seasons but I've got two rabbits in the bag. I'm going to work up a couple of good conical loads and try the 45 next fall during deer season.

My dad shot my 45 a few weeks ago and remarked that it shot like a 22.

I tell many shooters that if I were in the market for an inline, I would rather have a quality 45 versus an average 50 cal for the same or close money.

In fact, I'll be looking a 45 Encore this weekend. A guy I know is selling becuase he cannot use the 45 out west for elk. I told him to just buy the 50 cal barrel, but he is going with a 300WMag Weatherby instead and wants to dump the 45 Encore. So if all goes, I'll make room in the gun safe for another 45.

:thumbsup:

 

[roundball]

Does anyone hunt with a .45 cal rifle. Most of the posts I see are for .32's, .36's and 50's and up. I am a traditional shooter but would be interested in some feedback from the inline folks. My first bp rifle was an investarms .45 cal Hawken 25 years ago.

looking forward to your input.

AB

The .45cal muzzleloader has always been my favorite...have more .45cal sidelock percussions and flintlocks than any other caliber.

You can throttle back the .45 for small game, or easily take deer with it at full throttle, but you need to be mindful of distance as the relatively lightweight ball will shed energy more quickly than a .50/.54/.58.

I think of the .45cal as the .243cal of the muzzleloader world, so there's a premium on shot placement as well.
(the .50cal as a .30-30, the .54cal as a .30-06, etc)

EXAMPLES:
Heart shot a buck last year at 60yds with a full power hunting load in a .45cal flintlock, he sprinted 25yds and fell...ball passed through the body, stopping on the far side bulging the hide out, flattend out like a nickle.

Heart shot another buck with a light 40grn powder charge while squirrel hunting with a .45cal flintlock, but he was only 20yds away, 30yd sprint and fell.

And if more power/energy is needed, TC's 255grn Maxi-Hunters are tack drivers in a 1:48" barrel...pretty versatile caliber.

If I could only have a single muzzleloader, it would be a .45cal Flintlock with a 1:48" barrel.

If I could only have one muzzleloader, and it had to be a round ball rifle, then I'd get a .54cal.

 

[Dave Poss]

I have built one rifle in my life...a .45 flint. This was in 1981. Since then,several deer, many tree rats, and a bunch of targets have been sucessfully shot. I found no use for any other caliber. a .45 will down a whitetail right where he stands, and a head shot on a squirrl puts meat on my stick without taking half the body with the ball. Also .45 is the min. cal. allowed for big game in Ga.- so, it qualifies for hunting anything in the state. The recoil , even with hunting loads is minor unlike .54 or .58's. The only thing I can't shoot is birds "on the wing!" So, IMO, a .45 is the absolute best cal. for an all-around rifle. :redthumb:

 

[TANSTAAFL]

The first flinter I built back in the 70's was a .45 with a 42 inch Douglas 13/16" barrel for the wife. She later sold it to a friend, but he recently "gifted" it back to us.

Over the years that dainty looking little gun has accounted for numerous muleys and goats, (antelope to pilgrims) with few complaints as to it's killing power using RB and 60 grains of 3F BP.

The grandson will be using the piece this fall, so the tradition continues of the .45 as a hunter's gun.

 

[Cherokee]

I am building a 45 cal. Tennessee rifle. I see no reason it cant go toe to toe with a 50cal.

 

[kodiakemt414]

50 has a bigger toe. :haha: :haha: :crackup: :crackup: :crackup:

 

[Stumpkiller]

Something like that. The .45 is a fine caliber, and a slimmed-down rifle with the barrel thinned down to fit it is a joy to carry. It is just not "toe-to-toe" with the larger calibers on large game.

Stumpies Postulate on Caliber Selection:

Since all blackpowder shooting muzzleloaders using a patched round ball operate at approximately the same muzzle velocities, and iron sights limit the range of all proper muzzleloaders to approximately 100 yards, it follows that the bore diameter determines energy.

.440" is 128 gr
.490" is 179 gr (41% more mass than a 45)
.530" is 226 gr (76% more mass than a 45)

Energy = mass x velocity^2, so if 1,800 fps is the starting velocity, and the larger the mass the better it holds velocity (and resists wind effects), the larger balls mean quantum steps in energy downrange.

Muzzleloaders using round balls must push bigger balls instead of pushing balls faster to achieve energy.

Granted, though shot placement is the most critical determinant, there will be a point at which nature favors the more massive ball when things start to unravel (i.e. stretching a shot, bad estimate of distance, crosswind, twig, game movement, flinch, hangfire, oil in charge, etc.)

The bigger the hole the faster the ship sinks. And if a bigger ball leaves two holes, even better.

 

[CrackStock]

Before the flames commence, remember that you asked for the input and this is my opinion.

The .45 (along with the .40) is sometimes referred to as a crossover caliber -- meaning that it is supposedly usable for deer or small game.

My father's first ML rifle was a .45. That first rifle was rebarreled to .50 caliber for my father at a fair expense and effort on my part.

Before the rifle was rebarreled, I was not impressed and purchased another rifle in .50 for me.

I was a member of a club and we hunted exclusively with MLs and I helped keep the guns running, helped skin and clean the recovered deer and tracked down deer that the shooter could not recover on his own. Most of the deer that moved the farthest and were hardest to recover were from .45s.

(Okay, here come the, "I killed X number of deer instantly with trusty ole .45 cal Betsy" guys and they will be accompanied by the shot placement chorus -- Yeah, I am an instructor and sing that same tune, but we are specifically discussing the caliber -- not the shooter here)

These are also a tad too large for small game unless one really tries to stick with perfect head shots or can manage a perfect midsection shot on squirrels and rabbits.

Basically, it is only good for target work which a .40 does better in my opinion. (An exception here was a T/C Seneca in .45 which shot .445 balls like clockwork in YHEC competition) My target gun is a .40 (Which I also use for head shots on rabbits and squirrels); my deer gun is a .50, my hog gun is a .54 and I have a 20 gauge for turkey and other types of small game and fowl.

Sorry, but I find the .45 to be a pretty useless size and there are none in my collection beyond a detached barrel on a shelf... somewhere.

THE LINE IS HOT!
COMMENCE FIRING!

CS

 

[Dave Poss]

(Okay, here come the, "I killed X number of deer instantly with trusty ole .45 cal Betsy" guys and they will be accompanied by the shot placement chorus -- Yeah, I am an instructor and sing that same tune, but we are specifically discussing the caliber -- not the shooter here)

These are also a tad too large for small game unless one really tries to stick with perfect head shots or can manage a perfect midsection shot on squirrels and rabbits. Sorry, but I find the .45 to be a pretty useless size and there are none in my collection beyond a detached barrel on a shelf... somewhere.
CS

No Flame here! I'm just thankful I can shoot well enough to justify useing "my trusty ole .45"! Hundreds of pounds of venison in the freezer and thinning the herd of tree rats and winning State Championships in shooting with a cal. so undesirable really makes me warm and fuzzy! :crackup:

Seriously, based on your observations, wouldn't a .62 or even larger cal.then be better to hunt with since it would provide a bigger impact? The shock factor could more than compensate for poor marksmanship.

 

[roundball]

#1
Okay, here come the, "I killed X number of deer instantly with trusty ole .45 cal Betsy" guys and they will be accompanied by the shot placement chorus;

#2
These are also a tad too large for small game unless one really tries to stick with perfect head shots or can manage a perfect midsection shot on squirrels and rabbits.

Different opinions are OK...I have a different view:

#1
Actually that is the point...shot placement can't simply be waved off and discounted as not material to the discussion...indeed that's why there were so many long recoveries in your examples...poor shot placement...by contrast, every deer I've ever shot with a .45cal has dropped within 25-35yds still in my sight...shot placement is all part of the flintlock challenge to me;

#2
If we don't learn to make a head shot on a squirrel or a rabbit, what else would we aim for with a PRB? I've spent several long range sessions sitting on the ground leaning against a post (like a tree) with a throttled back .45cal, learning to consistently hit a small 1+3/4" target at 25yds...head shots are the way to go...part of the flintlock challenge to me.

I use the .45cal (all my calibers) intelligently and it's always been outstanding for me...if I didn't want to take up and master the challenge, I'd just use a shotgun...

:redthumb:

 

[Ohio Joe]

I expect everyone has their favorite caliber. I'll stick with my .45's... Seems I must be doing something right. I can't say as the .45 PRB has ever failed me on my hunting or target shooting. My skill level must be tremendous? ::

 

[jim gray]

I expect everyone has their favorite caliber. I'll stick with my .45's... Seems I must be doing something right. I can't say as the .45 PRB has ever failed me on the hunting or target shooting. My skill level must be tremendous?

Self discipline is as important as skill when hunting, especially with a muzzleloader. That the case even moreso when hunting with smaller calibers and PRBs.

 

[CrackStock]

I knew that I would stir the coals.

As I said, I am an NMLRA and was a YHEC instructor. I shot my MLs competitvely (monthly) for 5 years before moving.
I did not mean to wave off shot placement too lightly.

<<< shooting with a cal. so undesirable really makes me warm and fuzzy!>>>

I see it as poor compromise caliber in a hunting context which is where this all started. I did not say that it was inaccurate. I think that Ed May shoots one and I have always been impressed by his shooting. I think that Tom Cogburn does as well and he is a good friend who hunts deer with a .54.

The discussion was about comparing hunting caliber -- not shooting skill. Which you finally returned to at:

<<< Seriously, based on your observations, wouldn't a .62 or even larger cal.then be better to hunt with since it would provide a bigger impact? >>>

Yes, it would providing an significant hit were registered.
I have a friend in Baton Rouge who shoots them with a .62 Zephyr. Never misses. (Must be the caliber!!)

But as I never have endorsed poor marksmanship and am not doing so now. Let's go the opposite extreme. Are you saying that since you are so expert that you would endorse hunting deer with a .32? Where do you draw the line? .22?
Let's dispense with the extremes.

<<< that's why there were so many long recoveries in your examples...poor shot placement>>>

Interesting assertion -- I did not shoot the game, but I did recover, skin and butcher it. Lights yes -- heart no. To some extent, I agree with you.

(Side note -- Some of you seem to think that I am a poor shot -- not so. I have never had to go any further to recover deer shot by me than 25 yards. Generally, far less. I shoot deer with a .50 or .54)

In my opinion there is a lot less margin for error with a .45 or less when shooting deer. I have competed with my .40 and taken plenty of small game with it and under optimum conditions I might even shoot a deer with it some day. (Legal here) That does not make it a good choice for this use. The minimum PRB gun that I recommend is the .50 for deer.

I also said that the .45 is large for small game unless you are good enough to make headshots. My favorite small game gun is a .40. I have taken the time with it to know that I can put the blade on a rabbit's shoulder and take off his head. Squirrel requires a bit more thought, but is quite similar. I have a friend who shoots them in the body with a .32 and does not lose all that much meat.

<<< If we don't learn to make a head shot on a squirrel or a rabbit, what else would we aim for with a PRB? >>>

I use a .40 and generally make headshots, but at times a center body shot can be made with almost no loss. If I am a tad low with the .40 on a head shot, I lose some shoulder. I do not load hot for squirrel. Could this be done well with a .45? I honestly have not tried.

This perception is why I do not own a .45. I see nothing in it that other calibers do not do better.

Actually, I do not have a favorite caliber, I own a wide range of them and like most. I have just never seen the awe that some express for the .45.

<<< if I didn't want to take up and master the challenge, I'd just use a shotgun...>>>

Oddly enough, I preach a different version of this sermon. While I can shoot quite well with ML rifles, I regard the skills of a ML smoothbore to be more demanding. Not necessarily the pure marksmanship, but the entire process. I also have 2 smoothbore flintlock MLs which is my current ML area of interest.

CS

 

[roundball]

As I said, I am an NMLRA and was a YHEC instructor. I shot my MLs competitvely (monthly) for 5 years before moving.

:agree:...shot placement is everything and I've been practicing that concept for 45 years.

I'm very patient waiting for the correct shot when hunting...I don't get in a hurry when a buck approaches and take any old shot...I know sooner or later he'll take that final step that'll put him & his heart in view for a clear shot...and I've whistle stopped walking deer just to bring them to a standstill for that perfect heart shot.

IMO, there's far less precision required with a smoothbore shot load for squirrels at 30yds than with a PRB...just point and shoot.

I'll be at the range again in the morning for another weekly practice session...love those .45cal flinters!

 

I for one use to have a .45 and it was a great shooter and still is. A friend bought it from me and I then got a .50cal. I also had a .50 cal that i gave away to a fine young man before i moved. I have a .32 flinter that i am working on now and have no reson to believe it will not be a shooter also.
But since i have a .50 cal for deer and will soon have the .32 cal for small game. i have on hand the parts for a .54 cal with the barrel on order.
The ONLY reason i am going with the .54 cal is that I go out west every year to hunt elk. and a min. of .50 cal is required. And i believe that the .54 ia a better choice for this size game. It will be in a 1:66 twist so PRB's can be shot and with the game laws set forth by the different states to hunt elk and the type projectile that is legal, the roundball will meet these requiremants in all the states that i hunt in.
I have to agree with what has been mentioned that SHOT PLACEMENT has everything to do with what a paticular size caliber will do . A .75 cal shot to the foot of a der will slow him down but will not kill it. A well place .32 cal will stop a deer in it's tracks , although the .32 cal is not allowed to be used for deer hunting in any state I am aware of.
It all depends on what you want a paticular cal. to do. As they say value is in the eye of the beholder. :imo:

Woody

 

I have a TOTW Mountain Rifle kit in 45 and a 54 Hawken. Both are equally accurate to my eyes and have taken game cleanly. I like both rifles but would probably take the 54 if I could only have one because it does have that extra bit of mass. However, the 45 is easy to shoot and load and hits where I aim so can't complain about performance.

 

[Slamfire]

Stumpies Postulate on Caliber Selection:

Energy = mass x velocity^2, so if 1,800 fps is the starting velocity, and the larger the mass the better it holds velocity (and resists wind effects), the larger balls mean quantum steps in energy downrange.

Since roundballs all have the same ballistic coefficient (.016) they all shed velocity and energy at the same rate. The downrange energy advantage of a big ball over a little one is because it had more energy to start with. It don't mean much though, kinetice energy isn't what kills game, penetration does.

 

[Stumpkiller]

Since roundballs all have the same ballistic coefficient (.016) they all shed velocity and energy at the same rate.

Not according to Mr. Krupp and his ballistics formulae. Ballistic coefficient is dependent on velocity and air resistance (coefficient of drag), and a dozen of other variables. Round balls all have approximately the same form factor (but even that is dependant on other variables), and the ballistic coeffieient is calculated by sectional density divided by this form factor. Sectional density is (wt in grains/7000)/(dia * dia) and that changes with ball size. A .50 cal (.490") has a sectional density of 0.1052 while a .45 cal (0.440") has a S.D. of 0.0944.

Heavier objects shed energy slower. That's a natural law. The old throw the ping-pong ball and throw the golf-ball experiment. About the same size & shape but different weights.

Take two lead balls of different sizes (or rocks, or paperwads) and place them side-by side in your hand and throw them (thereby starting at the same speed). The larger one will ALWAYS go farther. Unless you throw soap bubbles or something that has more coefficient of drag than inertia.

And penetration isn't always the key. If a bear is charging us, you take the sharp 1/8" steel rod and I'll take the sledge hammer. We'll see who eats bear.

(Answer: the guy with the axe).