The inefficiences of Flintlocks

[tenngun]

I was going to point that out, even modren guns get blow by, and revolvers have their gas leaks too.
We could construct a rail gun that would waste little or no energy, but I will stay with my flinter... if needed I can add a little power to make up for blow by and what I loose via the touch hole.

 

[M. De Land]

There is and lots of it as viewed from slow motion photography.
Actually a patched round ball makes a pretty good seal because if it doesn't it will blow the patch. If the patch is whole, not burned and can be shot again with no holes present then very little gas escaped around it.
One must remember that a patched ball has to push a barrel full of air out ahead of it which is compressed until it excites the muzzle. I think some of what is viewed as smoke is actually water vapor from the humidity in the barrel air that is being compressed and heated as it moves out of the way of the ball. Add a prelube barrel to the equation and one can see how smoke could be generated ahead of the ball.

 

[M. De Land]

Actually the front of any black powder column does not actually burn until several inches up bore and acts as a wad/plug at first to help seal the bore.
I think it was Dr. Mann that proved this in his short barrel bullet obturation tests late in the 1800s.

 

[Rifleman1776]

obturation tests

Howdedodat?

Methinks one would have to look into the bore in ultra-slow-slow motion to see what is happening to the ball on firing. I never say never but I can't figure out how it would be possible to do that. :hmm:

 

[BrownBear]

..., better bragging rights too, especially when successful in the rain....

Oh yeah.

That's where the real "inefficiency" comes into flintlocks. You have to get off your hiney and do lots of range shooting on rainy days to learn how to make your particular gun work in spite of the rain. If you don't do it, you're just might be lugging around a fancy wood and steel pry bar on rainy hunts.

Lotta guys up here stay away from flinters because cappers are "easier" in the rain. That's true for folks who save their range trips for clear days, but in truth with both cappers and flinters. Cappers are by no means immune to rain either.

 

[coloradoclyde]

Inefficiencies?.......How does the old saying go......"It's a poor carpenter that blames his tools for the quality of his work"..... :hmm:

 

[Vaino]

Cappers to me are more resistant to rain than a flintlock all things considered, but if the shooter is knowledgeable through experience of rainy days, the 2 systems aren't that far apart asre moisture interfering w/ the ignition.

Early on, I realized that some of the best squirrel hunting was in the rain....not pouring rain but in a drizzle.

So....a calve's knee was used but also the moisture ridden prime had to be removed {very soupy} , the pan wiped dry and new prime used. After observing the above, didn't have a failure to fire at all.

Have hunted elk w/ a capper and one year it rained most of the days and never had a misfire.in fact we kept the same charges for up to 6 days and they all fired .

Flintlocks do require a more experienced shooter familiar w/ rainy days, but flintlocks can be as reliable as a capper, just requires a little extra knowledge and effort......Fred

 

[tenngun]

I have been out in rain and snow with a flinter, and yes you have to take care. Keeping the lock dry and muzzle down requires some work and mindfulness for sure.
The biggest problem is loading when it’s raining. Making sure your measure is dry, and keeping the powder, muzzle bore all dry while loading. I don’t carry non traditional equipment afield. Then priming and resealing the pan takes a might of work. Rains are a pia

 

[M. De Land]

Every one seems to use rainy weather to compare the reliability difference between flint and cap guns but in my opinion were using the wrong premise.
I think falling in the drink is a better test which happens more often than one would expect,especially on float hunts.
If the rifle goes under there is no comparison of reliability, cows knee or not. If the cap fits correctly on the nipple and the patch is tight on the ball the cap gun will fire every time!

 

[BrownBear]

For several years back in the late 70's we had an intrepid small group organizing rondy's around here in rain country. They were mostly flint shooters, but let me join the fun cuzz they got a giggle out of my one and only muzzleloader, a SxS 12 capper.

They were kicking around ideas for realistic but unusual shoots in an upcoming gathering, so I suggested this one:

Everyone dunk your muzzleloader in a horse trough for 10 seconds, and first to get theirs to fire and hit a target was the winner.

No takers.

They passed the bottle of corn and started speculating where they could get a realistic bear target. :hatsoff:

 

[tenngun]

Good idea, a capper might win that one. I am put in mind though of the sailor and marine both using a toilet. The sailor didn’t wash his hands the marine said ”˜ in the Corp we’re taught to wash our hands after voiding” . The sailor says “in the navy we’re taught not to void on our hands”. I will try to keep my flinter out of the creek.
I did fall in a creek in a canoe race and had to light a fire. I have an Hudson Bay tobacco tin with a glass in it. So I was able to get a light.
I might hazard a guess they 10 min in the water would soak past a patch and get under the cap.

 

[BrownBear]

I might hazard a guess they 10 min in the water would soak past a patch and get under the cap.

I know for a fact that it gets to the powder. Learned that the hard way dumping my canoe on a duck hunt and taking a while to recover my SXS. :rotf:

But that's why I suggested making the time 10 minutes, just to be fair. With my usual barrel cover (electrical tape) and nipple cover (hammers lowered onto a patch of oiled leather), I managed to keep the powder dry for a couple of minutes when the tide snuck in on me with my SxS laying on the ground by my prone blind while I was out phiddlepharting around with my decoys.

Guy might think I was clumsy or careless in my youth. Both were true, actually! Wish I could claim I was better today. :hatsoff:

 

[Scipio]

Since the loading process is the same between a flintlock and a percussion rifle, problems with gas sealing in bore are the same.

Yes, gas escapes from the vent but I do not believe it has any significant effect on pressures and thus velocity. At least I seriously doubt anyone can isolate it well enough to prove it has any significance in the performance of the rifle.

I think that ensuring the ball is seated consistently on the powder would have far greater effect on the internal ballistics of a ML than how much gas escapes from a vent or nipple.

And given that black powder uses half of its energy just to burn and create carbon residue, it isn't exactly efficient on its own.

Of all the things I can think about that can make or break a precise shot with a muzzle loader, gas escaping from a tiny vent isn't one of them.

Scipio

 

[Rifleman1776]

sailor says “in the navy we’re taught not to void on our hands”

A sailor said "VOID"? :rotf:

 

[Loyalist Dave]

Here's another "inefficiency"...., :grin: for the cost of a good quality, not the best, but a good quality flintlock, both in accuracy and workmanship...,
..., one could buy three modern firearms, and maybe four or five...., :shocked2:

LD



Wait, why is everybody lookin' at me like that?..., put down the clubs and knives boys, I was only goofin'...., :slap:

 

[coloradoclyde]

I will try to keep my flinter out of the creek.
I did fall in a creek in a canoe race and had to light a fire. I have an Hudson Bay tobacco tin with a glass in it. So I was able to get a light.
I might hazard a guess they 10 min in the water would soak past a patch and get under the cap.

There's a great idea......A Muzzleloader torture test.....Flintlock VS percussion.

Fall out of a boat and swim to shore.

I wonder which would be made operational the easiest/quickest.

My money is on the flintlock

Wet powder can be dried.....Wet caps will never work again.

 

[tenngun]

sailor says “in the navy we’re taught not to void on our hands”

A sailor said "VOID"? :rotf:

Well of corse, sailors are taught to use proper language :wink:
I didn’t want to set off the auto sensor.

 

[smo]

I have always heard that if the touch hole becomes enlarged you will see a drop in accuracy .

With a normal sized vent there’s not enough blow out to have any effect on the shot I don’t think.

:hmm:

More than likely we’re getting more blow by going out the barrel than one ever could out the touch hole.
:idunno:

 

[Skychief]

sailor says “in the navy we’re taught not to void on our hands”

A sailor said "VOID"? :rotf:

Well, at the very least, the sailor used a four-letter word. :hmm:

 

[Sunkmanitu Tanka]

If you film that, you probably have a better documentary than many now shown on TV!