The inefficiences of Flintlocks

[Scipio]

Not so. All you have to do is look at the cost of some out of the box .22 RF match rifles. $3 - $4K is about average and I believe sights are extra -- and cost another $800 - $1K. Match Rifles used in HP are mostly custom jobs but once it is all said and done, look at $5K plus for rifle and iron sights. Probably $8K if you want a decent optic.

The TVM Jaeger I just picked up cost less than a competitive optic, let alone a competitive Match Rifle with sights.

A good thing about muzzle loaders is that you can get a very good one with very nice wood and furnishings for around $3K.

Scipio

 

[Artificer]

PLEASE understand this is not meant to be critical of you or any individual.

Since the loading process is the same between a flintlock and a percussion rifle, problems with gas sealing in bore are the same.

If you mean how the lubricated patch and ball seal the bore only, then I agree. However, pressure test equipment can easily show the differences in gas pressure and thus velocity depending on how large the vent hole is and/or how large the hole is in the percussion nipple.

Yes, gas escapes from the vent but I do not believe it has any significant effect on pressures and thus velocity.

How would you know? PLEASE again, don't take that as criticism. One cannot test such things very accurately unless one has barrel pressure test equipment. Further, we don't even try to test such things normally. Most of us normally find the best ball size, patch type/thickness/lubricant and the best grain size and type of powder for the most accurate load and we go with that. As long as the vent in a flintlock is large enough to function properly, that's the sum total most of us do.

At least I seriously doubt anyone can isolate it well enough to prove it has any significance in the performance of the rifle.

When we shoot at 25 to 50 yards, I doubt tiny differences in vent sizes would mean much. I further doubt that until the range gets to 100 yards, it would easily be noticeable. However, I bet it would make a difference at 200 yards, but most of us never shoot at that range anyway.

What we DO know by long standing empirical evidence is that when either the hole in a percussion nipple or the hole in a flintlock vent grows too large, velocity and performance decreases.

I think that ensuring the ball is seated consistently on the powder would have far greater effect on the internal ballistics of a ML than how much gas escapes from a vent or nipple.

Well, sure, but what has this got to do with vent hole size?

Of all the things I can think about that can make or break a precise shot with a muzzle loader, gas escaping from a tiny vent isn't one of them.

Scipio

Again, sure, we human beings make much bigger mistakes that will harm the accuracy of any rifle FAR MORE than tiny differences in vent hole sizes. But I would suggest that is not the point.

I suggest the point should be how to get the best accuracy and function out of a rifle with "mechanical" measures and the best load and loading techniques. When that is done, almost any decent rifle will shoot better to FAR BETTER than most of us can accurately shoot. But at least then we know it is our fault and not the rifle, when accuracy suffers.

Gus

 

[coloradoclyde]

Yes, gas escapes from the vent but I do not believe it has any significant effect on pressures and thus velocity.

How would you know? PLEASE again, don't take that as criticism. One cannot test such things very accurately unless one has barrel pressure test equipment. Further, we don't even try to test such things normally. Most of us normally find the best ball size, patch type/thickness/lubricant and the best grain size and type of powder for the most accurate load and we go with that. As long as the vent in a flintlock is large enough to function properly, that's the sum total most of us do.

Can't help but recall the DGW catalog add where they tested a section of one of their barrels by installing breech plugs at both ends drilling a vent, filling with powder and lighting by a fuse.....They claimed all the gas came out that vent....without the barrel exploding.
I don't think they would have had the same results had a bolster and nipple or patent breech been installed, and fired by percussion cap.

 

[Artificer]

Not sure if it would make a difference? Just don't know. Though there is NO WAY I will ever test it out. I don't have any desire to test what will or won't make a pipe bomb. :haha:

Gus

 

[M. De Land]

I'm going to soak several caps for ten minutes and see if they will fire although the original post was for ten seconds not minutes which is more realistic for a dunking. If the caps fit the nipple correctly and are pressed on they should seal adequately without wax sealing them.
As for a greased patch, it will pass the test every time if properly tight.

 

[coloradoclyde]

Indeed.....but, that's not the point I was trying to make.....Every time you have a 90 degree bend in a vent, or a reduction of diameter, the velocity of the gas is reduced....This, in our scenario this translates to an increase in pressure.

The differences between a caplock and a flintlock in terms of ignition venting can be quite noticeable.

 

[Scipio]

Artificer:

I do not view your comments as being critical or rude. Being a competitive shooter, I have learned to focus on things I know have a effect on my performance and ignore things I have no ability to change.

Gas escaping from a flintlock vent will have an effect. However, I contend it will be so minute in terms of overall shot to shot variance that no one can measure its effect.

It certainly wouldn't be something I would rely on to convince someone that a cap lock is better than a flint lock.

There are other things that can be proven such as ignition time, reliability and uniformity of ignition, and the way each system moves the rifle when the hammers fall.

I would rather shoot at 200 yards with a under hammer percussion rifle than a flintlock or a side lock percussion rifle. If not an under hammer then a percussion rifle with a side hammer would be my choice.

Not because I would even think that the vent in a flintlock is bleeding velocity. Simply because a cap lock is faster, is more reliable and consistent in ignition, and moves the rifle less than a flintlock.

Scipio

 

[smo]

Hot gases escaping the vent will eat away at it, as it will on percussion guns nipple.

If you shoot enough it will enlarge the hole, bigger hole more pressure out the vent.

More pressure going sideways vs forward, less pressure pushing forward , less velocity .

Less velocity , lower impact point on target.

Kinda like falling off a log to me....

 

[coloradoclyde]

I'm going to soak several caps for ten minutes and see if they will fire .

Well?.....It's been hours....What happened?

Making the gun waterproof was part of what I had in mind for the torture test......I think a flintlock would be easier to waterproof....

 

[smo]

Both have two holes to plug :wink:

 

[M. De Land]

I'll get to it here when I finish eating. Had an appointment to install three thermo windows this PM and just got back from the job.

 

[tenngun]

I do have trouble understanding the point of this thread. Flintlocks are a primitive technology. It’s much improved over archery tackle, it’s much improved over matchlocks. It’s cheaper to produce then wheellocks, some of which could fire under water, it’s not as good as a modren gun. We don’t choose it because of its advantages we choose it because of the challenge. And we like elitism so it gives us bragging rights. There not real bragging rights there just something we like to strut about. After all we are just playing here.

 

[Scipio]

Less velocity, add powder.

Here is the thing, a person can 'what if' anything until it becomes important. A guy with a cap lock whose drum or nipple is damaged should get it fixed. A guy with a flintlock whose vent has been eroded to the point where the flame coming out of it is either dangerous or adversely effects his performance needs to get it fixed.

Not trying to start a big fight here but it seems to me that there are a bunch of other things with a flintlock that one can prove disrupts the alignment of the sights and eyes when the trigger is pulled than gas exiting the vent.

Scipio

 

[M. De Land]

Here you go. Three caps of each were soaked from 11-12 minutes and fired ,RWS and CCI.
Water was blown out of each cap before firing on the pistol pictured and my bowling ball mortar for the musket caps. Not a single failure or hesitation of all nine caps.

 

[coloradoclyde]

Interesting..... :thumbsup: :hatsoff:

 

[Artificer]

Scipio,

Thank you for understanding my earlier remarks were not personal criticism.

As a competitive shooter, I'm sure you realize that at the higher/highest levels of competition, what separates the person who wins from others is that person did not make a mistake or as many mistakes as others on that day of competition. Though that usually means a human error in marksmanship technique, the mistake sometimes comes from errors the shooter should have corrected beforehand in their equipment. The most drastic example I have seen of this happened at the 1996 World Muzzle Loading Championships at Wedgnock, UK.

Quite a few months earlier, I had been chosen to replace the Team Armourer on the U.S. International Muzzle Loading Team because of failing health of my predecessor. I had been chosen not only because of many years repairing arms at the NSSA Spring and Fall National Championships, but also because I had previous experience as a Team Armorer on THE Marine Corps Rifle Team, including at the National Championships.

In the late winter months before we went to Wedgnock in August, I was invited to a meeting of the leadership of the team at the NRA HQ. Normally the Team Armourer was invited to these meetings, but the previous Team Armourer had never spoken up at these meetings. I changed that significantly because I knew we would have shooters who ran the gamut from first time at World Competition to Veterans of many World Shoots.

The first thing I brought up was each percussion shooter should have a NEW nipple in each of their competition guns that they had fired to ensure the nipple did not change the group. I advised a second back up nipple in case shipping damaged the fresh nipple. I advised Flintlock Shooters have at least one or two new spare flints and flint wraps they had tested in their guns to ensure they could quickly change a flint and wrap if needed. I also advised on what spare parts they should bring, especially for original guns, that I could fit/replace for them as needed. Though I could and did bring a large selection of parts, there was no way I would automatically have every part needed to repair a gun that went down during competition. This information was well received and they published it in the Team Report that went out in the Spring before we left for Wedgnock in August.

OK, fast forward to the very first day of practice at Wedgnock, a couple days before the World Competition began. I had laid out original and reproduction nipple wrenches and other original and reproduction tools on my picnic table workbench, to quickly repair any guns or in case any shooter needed them quickly. I was away from my workbench either "walking the line" or going to the head when a couple Team Members came up to alert me our best Woman Shooter was frantically going through my tools to replace the nipple in her original rifle.

I rushed back, took her rifle and spoke calmly to her to settle her down. When I got the nipple out, I was surprised how burned out it was. Fortunately, someone had already re-tapped it so it took a standard 1/4 x 28 nipple. After I got her rifle back into proper shooting condition and saw her later, I reminded her she had been at the Meeting where I had addressed putting a new nipple in before going to the competition and asked why she hadn't done it? She told me another Team Member had looked at the nipple about 16 months before that and pronounced it good, so she had not changed it. I grinned a little and said I had brought up that information just so something like this would not happen there at the World Championships.

Fortunately it happened in practice and before they shot for record and her rifle came right back on for accuracy and reliability when she shot for record. She had previously won quite a few Gold Medals in Zone and World Championships for women's 100 meter prone, but the pressure got to her a bit that year and she took the Silver. It didn't help I had rebuilt the lock on the rifle that belonged to the Swiss Team Captain's Wife who edged her out for the Gold, but that is another story.

Since I have never heard of anyone actually testing a Flintlock Vent Hole with a Vent liner that they drilled out one size at a time through a number a different sizes and tested it with barrel pressure test equipment and chronometer, I freely admit I don't know what size vent hole is best for each type of Flint Rifle, Pistol or Smoothbore. What I have come to generally believe, though, is to have the Vent Hole as small as possible, but at a minimum size where it will function correctly every time the gun is fired. That way it will last the longest before it burns out too large and causes accuracy or functioning problems. In a competition gun, I would most likely want to put a vent liner in or replace the vent liner when I noticed the Vent Hole getting bigger.

Now with our modern steel barrels on Flint Guns, our Vent Holes and/or Vent Hole liners won't burn out as fast as the original Iron Barrels did. So unless we shoot a lot, we won't see the burn out as quickly on our barrels.

Actually, I have seen a LOT more percussion shooters who have let their nipples burn out and cause accuracy and function problems than I have seen flint guns with too large of Vent Holes.

Gus

 

[Scipio]

Artificer:

The shooter who was freaking out over replacing the drum and or nipple on the cap lock needs to have a chat with who ever is providing mental skills training to the team. Wrapped way too tight.

I am a bit confused over this entire discussion though. Why would anyone want to bring up vent hole gas release when it would be the least likely cause of a poor shot?

Since you are an armorer on this team, how about giving us some lessons learned?

Scipio

 

[smo]

Less velocity, add powder.

Here is the thing, a person can 'what if' anything until it becomes important. A guy with a cap lock whose drum or nipple is damaged should get it fixed. A guy with a flintlock whose vent has been eroded to the point where the flame coming out of it is either dangerous or adversely effects his performance needs to get it fixed.

Not trying to start a big fight here but it seems to me that there are a bunch of other things with a flintlock that one can prove disrupts the alignment of the sights and eyes when the trigger is pulled than gas exiting the vent.

Scipio

I’m not arguing the point of which is better.... I’m just stating that a worn out vent or nipple could cause a loss in velocity .

Which in turn will cause the ball to drop quicker.

Of course at that time a person needs to change the nipple or vent liner , that’s one of the reasons they’re threaded.

To assist in cleaning and for replacement when worn out.

As far as less velocity , add powder....

Over the years here several test have been done shooting over snow cover or some type ground cover to prove a point that large powder charges sometimes do not get completely burned during ignition . Flint or Percussion.
Shorter barrel , less time to burn before exiting the barrel , thus wasted powder.

I’ve known Guys shooting thru chronographs that swear a difference in something as simple as patch lube ( which is completely another subject ) can and will cause as loss in velocity thus a loss in accuracy .

I don’t believe you will see much change in impact points at < 50 yards , but beyond 50 is where the problem arises .

I’m by no means an expert on muzzleloaders, but I can see how the loss of velocity “could” have an effect on accuracy.

Hunting X’s is a different game than hunting deer or elk.

There are some people out there who can really shoot, (Some are Members of this Forum) I’m NOT one of them, but they are out there.

:v

 

[smo]

Since the loading process is the same between a flintlock and a percussion rifle, problems with gas sealing in bore are the same.

Yes, gas escapes from the vent but (I) do not believe it has any significant effect on pressures and thus velocity. At least (I ) seriously doubt anyone can isolate it well enough to prove it has any significance in the performance of the rifle.

(I )think that ensuring the ball is seated consistently on the powder would have far greater effect on the internal ballistics of a ML than how much gas escapes from a vent or nipple.

And given that black powder uses half of its energy just to burn and create carbon residue, it isn't exactly efficient on its own.

Of all the things (I) can think about that can make or break a precise shot with a muzzle loader, gas escaping from a tiny vent isn't one of them.

Scipio

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07/30/18 08:22 AM - Post#1695380

In response to Artificer

Artificer:

The shooter who was freaking out over replacing the drum and or nipple on the cap lock needs to have a chat with who ever is providing mental skills training to the team. Wrapped way too tight.




(I ) am a bit confused over this entire discussion though. Why would anyone want to bring up vent hole gas release when it would be the least likely cause of a poor shot?



:slap: :haha: :shocked2:

Most expierienced Flintlock shooters have overcome the the small inconsistency’s such as pan flash, lock timing or lock “jar” from the **** slamming shut simply by more shooting and follow thru.

Flint guns aren’t for everyone.

Some can never overcome these issues... that can and will affect accuracy,

 

[Artificer]

Scipio,

I was the Armourer to the U.S. International Muzzleloading Team for about 4 years, until after I retired from the Marine Corps and could no longer afford to do it. I don't want to hijack this thread any more on Team Shooting, so will leave that to other threads.

The subject of the vent hole in this thread is one of the inefficiencies of the flintlock. When the wrong size or burned out, it is more difficult to fix than replacing a burned out nipple on a percussion gun, so it is germane to this discussion.

Gus