The more I shoot smoothies, the less I know

[11th corps]

Had my northwest trade gun (TOW) out to the range today. I used 30 grains of 4f Goex and 30 grains of 777-I am running out of "real" blackpowder.
I got the most consistent ingition ever. Why is this? Could it be the weather-it was about 60 degrees, low humidity-
I fired approx. 25 shots without ever swabbing the bore-I had 3 flash in the pans-that was it, and it was near the end of my session.
I was not even wiping the pan between shots-I did use a pick about every 3rd or 4th shot. Fast ignition time too.
Using 4F in the pan.
Anyway, a great day.

 

[musketman]

Had my northwest trade gun (TOW) out to the range today. I used 30 grains of 4f Goex and 30 grains of 777
I got the most consistent ingition ever. Why is this?

Duplex loads is nothing new, I imaging the 30 grains of FFFFg was to (or above) the level above the flash hole, this is why you got the instant ignition...

Have you (or anyone else) ever tried mixing both powders prior to pouring them into the muzzle?

Wonder is that would work better than a layer of FFFFg and a layer of Pyrodex... :hmm:

 

[roundball]

".....Have you (or anyone else) ever tried mixing both powders prior to pouring them into the muzzle?....."

While my one example is certainly not the end all to the discussion, I can say that in using up several left over LBs of Pyrodex at the range, I was never happy with the performance consistency when I actually "mixed" Goex 3F and Pyrodex together.

I tried and have stayed with a "layered" load of 20grns Goex 3F down bore first, followed by 30-40grns of Pyrodex...results for me have been excellent and consistent...I premeasure them into 50 - 35mm film canisters of Goex, another 50 canisters of Pyrodex...go to the range and fire away.

I've finished off 2-3 LBs of Pyrodex-P...working on the last few LBs of Pyrodex-RS now...using about 1500grns of Pyrodex per range trip, I've got another dozen trips and it'll be all used up.

 

[11th corps]

I am getting better with this weapon also. I was pretty consistently hitting juice containers at 50 yards off hand. Learning to shoot without sights, not looking straight down the barrel like a rifle has been a challenge, but its fun. Next time out I plan to try and hit a kitty litter jug filled with water-I always wondered when anything useful would ever come from that darned cat-at 100 yards.
One other question. By using 4F in the barrel, am I pushing pressures? Should I be concerned about this?

 

[roundball]

I am getting better with this weapon also. I was pretty consistently hitting juice containers at 50 yards off hand. Learning to shoot without sights, not looking straight down the barrel like a rifle has been a challenge, but its fun. Next time out I plan to try and hit a kitty litter jug filled with water-I always wondered when anything useful would ever come from that darned cat-at 100 yards.
One other question. By using 4F in the barrel, am I pushing pressures? Should I be concerned about this?

Not with a little 30grn igniter charge...I've personally tested 30/40/50grns 4F as main charges in .45/.50/.54/.58 calibers and it was only at 50grns did it seem like the rifles were starting to shoot/feel like a typical 50grn target load of Goex 3F that I normally use...very acurate/very clean...and I assume the caliber you're shooting is an even larger bore, so the pressure would be even less.

 

[CoyoteJoe]

I'd be more concerned about the 777. The substitutes do not always behave like true black powder in a consistent and predictable manner, and triple seven is one of the more "squirrely" of the subs. Its' pressure and burn rate is very inconsistent and sensitive to such things as compaction which we take for granted with black. Who could even guess how it is affected by the "kicker" charge of 4f.
I'd never trust that stuff in any load that hasn't been laboratory tested and your load surely has not been. Your load seems mild for a 20 gauge but with 777, who knows.

 

[Slamfire]

I know what you mean, I knew all there was to know about women, before I got my driver's license. Now I can't figure out the one I've been married to for 40 years. :shake: Fortunately, I have NOT had a smooth bore that long. :rotf:

 

[11th corps]

Out to the range again this a.m. I think I have settled on a load, 40 grains of 4F under 30 grains of 777. 4F in the pan.
I was pretty consistently hitting juice jugs and 2 liter pop bottles at 50 yards.
Just for fun, I set up a Bianchi Cup target at 100 yards. I was all over the place on this. Guess the smoothie just isn't accurate at 100 yards.
Whats really better then spending a saturday a.m. out on the range when no one else is out there?
I can think of something that might be better, but its probably illegal :grin:

 

[pathfinderifh]

It's only illeagal if ya get caught! I'm not sure whats going on with the duplex loads or why any one would want to use them,alot of work for little gain, if any. In my 25 years of teaching muzzleloading, I have always stressed NEVER NEVER NEVER use 4f as a main charge or part of a main charge, EVER! This sport is easy and simple once ya get use to it. ,The substitute black powders are O.K. in in the "Modern" muzzleloaders, but should'nt be used in traditional firearms,IMHO.

 

[paulvallandigham]

I have to agree. NEVER use FFFg powder in the main charge. Duplex loads are all over the Chronograph, enough so to justify never using them. I don't even recommend using FFFg powder as a starter charge. Now, with the testing that has been done by sifting powder here, I am going to recommend to shooters to sift their powder to get consistent ignition. When a can of FFFg Goex may have as little as 40 percent, and even less FFFg powder in it, with the rest being FFFFg, you can't know what you are putting down the barrel. Same with FFg powder. Sift it.

FFFFg powder is PRIMING powder, and should never be used for any other purpose. IT is used in Flintlock rifles only. The BP substitutes have a ways to go before they are substitutes. Some seem to work pretty well in BP cartridges, with the right primers. Coyboy action shooters can benefit from this fact, if the price of the stuff comes down. DO NOT believe the hype that you don't have to clean your gun if you use 777, or pyrodex, or any of the other substitutes. They have substituted escrobic acid for sulfur, but otherwise they are just as fouling, and just as corrosive. Maybe more. I know shooters who have bought the more expensive substitutes simply, and only because they thought they would not have to clean their guns as often. If that is your reason for using the stuff, you are sadly mistaken and can ruin a fine gun.

 

[11th corps]

I am using the 4f because its the only "real" blackpowder I have left. It is getting very difficult to find BP around here. Gun shops just don't carry it anymore. When I go to Friendship this fall, I will pick up some Goex. I know you can mail order, but I think T.O.W. minimum order is 25 pounds. I do not want that much, nor do I want to store that much b.p. in my home.
Where are you guys getting your Goex? Is there a shop in Indiana that carry's b.p.

 

[Russianblood]

www.grafs.com has a 4 pound minimum and[url] www.powderinc.com[/url] sells a minimum 5 pound lot. Even buying in only a 5lb lot, it came out cheaper than buying locally.

 

[rickystl]

Good thread here. The only real advantage I have found with the substitute BP is with C&B revolvers with good caps. I can definately shoot at the range for a much longer time between cleanings and no cylinder bind. However, you still need to clean after a days (or sooner) shooting as usual. Have similar results with the Enfield musket. But no good for flintlocks. Ignition too slow. My overall experience is that the substitutes were made for the "modern-type" BP fiearms using the HOT primers. :hmm: