The "New" .58 Howdah - What to Load...

[LeMat1856]

.
.dec 21 / 21:35


hello all,

well, 'tis the season and i couldn't resist cabelas price cuts on the rifled .58cal howdah ($499 + free shipping) even though i had to sell the house, car, and the kids.. what ??

the problem seems to be a misunderstanding of ".58cal" which to me means a box of three rivers .575", 460gr, minie's and my ingenious auto-luber with, say 50-55gr FF, and a nice warm day at the range.

however, this brand new item doesn't come with an owner's manual (seriously - nothing !) so i had to do the email thing with Gloria from D-Pedersoli to find out everything from nipple size to recommended load, which just happens to be, you guessed it, 25gr FFF and a .570" prb.... not quite what i had in mind.

so i'm here for some suggestions, comments, and recommendations.. could it use a real ".58" conical round or is that just hype ? from what i've learned, the twist rate is 1:24 with 7 grooves (she didn't know the groove depth !), and the barrel is 11 1/4" with an overall length of close to 19".

the prb i found easily by searching other posts here, but apparently i'm the first to take the bait for this model.

for comparison, on their site they have: .5748" ball at 285gr available only if you buy their mold USA-520-575 (which isn't actually for sale - smooth move, davide).

whad'ya think i should do - just try it and see what happens or will i blow myself into the next county ?

~d~

 

[DanChamberlain]

25 grains? I suppose if you're intending to play marbles...

It's the same gun as a 20ga shotgun they produce for crying out loud. It should take loads heavier than 25 grains. A tiger climbing up on the elephant would laugh at 25 grains! That's not a Howdah...that's a Howdie Doodie!

Dan

 

[Dave Rosenthal]

Daniel,

This is an interesting situation for which we can only give advice, since none of us actually have this new thing! Some Pedersoli's have a "Max Charge & Load" stamped into the barrels on the underside, which is hidden by the wood fore end.

Baring that I would do a work-up with the PRB starting at 35 grains of 3Fg fired over a chrono. Go up in the standard 5 grain increments, but only fire 3 shots per string. When you get to the point that the additional 5 grains is no longer noticeable speed-wise, you've probably reached the point that any additional powder will just make noise and recoil since you're still shooting a hand gun.

A .570 ball weighs a lot more than a .454 in my Walker revolver, and I use 52 grains in the big boomer :shocked2: . Recoil on that same charge with a larger ball (.570) would be more significant, so be careful! And my Walker weighs over 4.5 pounds fully loaded...what does the .58 Howdah weigh? All things to take into consideration :hmm: Add the weight of a big conical from that mould, and recoil could double...maybe that's why they haven't sold the mould yet! They don't want to see a Youtube clip of someone getting knocked in the head by their product like the .50 AE Desert Eagle from IMI with the girl in a t-shirt.

Just some rambled thoughts...your mileage may vary & good luck and have fun!

Dave

 

[Slake]

I don't think that's too small of a load for a pistol....and you are talking FFF here...I'd be fine with startin with that and see how it is...if ya want to liven it up a bit you can by all means...The current issue of American Rifleman has a write up about the Howda and it looks cool. That write up talks about 25grains of 2F is the load they tested it with and that ain't as hot as the same with 3F

 

[Zonie]

Dixie Gunworks Catalog mentions that the .58 caliber U.S. Springfield Pistol, Model 1855 took a 40 grain 2Fg powder load under a .570-.575 patched ball.

I would think of this as a max load for your Howdah. After all, it is a pistol meant for close up shooting and I would sure hate to hear that you busted the stock by trying to fire a heavy conical over a large powder load.

Another thing to think about if your shooting a heavy conical with a big powder load: The excessive recoil from one shot could easily move the other shots ball/bullet off of the powder load and create a bore obstruction that could burst that second barrel if it were touched off without reseating the bullet.

 

[LeMat1856]

.
. dec 23 / 02:40


good recommendations, one and all.

to follow-up, i re-read one of the emails from gloria and she said this in response to my question about using conicals:

"..Hello Daniel,

I would suggest to stay close to the round ball and patch, which does not
need a larger black powder charge, that may give an unplesant recoil...."

so, it doesn't seem that she is saying "no you cannot ever use conicals or 55gr powder" but that it may just kick a bit.

based on that would i be ok using conicals ? and, in some previous posts regarding the 20x20 models, one member said he didn't have any problem using up to 50gr FF... i think it was madcratebuilder way back in 2008.

i'm with you, danchamberlain, 25gr is obviously the standard "play it safe" low end.. however, maybe the tiger would just die laughing... problem solved ! :rotf:

and, smokin .50, i would like to check for a max charge stamp, but there aren't any instructions for removing the barrel(s) from the stock.. from what i can see/guess, i should remove the only wedge there is and go from there, carefully to be sure.. sadly i don't have a chrono or i'd work up the load as you've suggested.. i'll keep your method for range day and might get lucky if someone else just happens to have one set up and working. (too expensive for me alone.) and, yes, i did see the babe getting her nose job with the desert eagle - i had to laugh even though it probably hurt like a big dog.. my first "real" gun was a .410 bolt action using full 3 1/2" slugs and it left a bruise on my shoulder that i'll never forget, so i can sympathise.

slake, i'm planning on using FF. thanks for the heads up about the article which i'll see if i can find on the web.. sadly, they look cool but i was a little disappointed with their choice of "satin" as the finish for both wood and metal.. i had expected the usual high polished look found on almost everything else.

zonie, if the springfield m1855 can take a .570-575, why couldn't this ? then there is the question of whether or not a conical would expand properly with 40gr FF.... do you think it would ?

and, testing for "second chamber load creep" is mentioned quite frequently in posts here and the emails from gloria, so i'll definitely be sure to notch my rod and measure before using it.. fyi, she passed this site on for anything and everything pedersoli: www. flintlocksetc .com/ contact_us.htm - their offical u.s.a. providers.. (the site is sooooo lame. it has about 10 items - total - and no molds or anything of use to me.)

i'll be back later.

thanks for all the info so far,

~d~

 

[F.G. Ford]

I've had double rifles & pistols for years.
Remember the Howdah is a replica of a "do or die pistol"
To load it yp with 150grs. of 3f and two balls in each barrel is looking for trouble!
And heavy loads in a double pistol will eventually crack the stock!
25-60 grs. and a .570 ball is a lot of power.
Since in most cases your barrels are pointed downward, or under recoil, you want to be sure that your load in both barrels is well locked in position.
That being the case, a minie ball in the barrel is risky.
Good luck with your pistol & have fun.
Old Ford

 

[redwing]

One of the NRA test shows. A TC 320 gr. Maxi-Ball at 642 FPS 16 shot Av. 294 FP energy 25 Grs. of Pyro 3F. Group size at 25 yds smallest 2.51" for 10 shots. Largest 4.50" 10 shot group. This is without a rear sight and only a bead front. I can only imagine how well it would do with an Adj. rear sight and blade front. :thumbsup:

 

[LeMat1856]

.
. dec 23 / 16:15


you don't have to worry about that - 150gr and two balls ain't gonna happen.. i'm not that crazy (yet).. plus i don't think i'll spend much time pointing downwards until i get the urge to actually try this howdah in a howdah in india (say that three times real fast !).

but, redwing got me thinking and, after an hour or two, i may have found some rounds that might work.. dixie has their house brand available in 480gr and buffalo ball-ets in 380gr for reasonable price and quantity.. that should cut down on the weight and allow less powder per round.. so, this might not be as bad as i originally imagined..

are there any pro's or con's to either of those that i missed ? the buffalos are prelubed and i can do the others myself.

one more problem: without a manual i don't have directions for disassembly.. is there anything i need to do besides pull the wedge ?

~d~

one interesting piece of trivia i picked up is that the barrels are chrome lined - sweet aye ! !

 

[Zonie]

"zonie, if the springfield m1855 can take a .570-575, why couldn't this ? then there is the question of whether or not a conical would expand properly with 40gr FF.... do you think it would ?"
---------
I don't know.
As I think about it, I wonder why one would care?

There are damn few modern bullets that expand as large as a .570 or .580 diameter ball or bullet starts out before it leaves the muzzle.

It sounds like you have made up your mind that you are going to shoot a 400+ grain conical in your gun and you just want some of us to say it's ok to do that.

Well......."OK".

There. To quote many mothers, "Are you happy now?"

Just kidding. :rotf:

I really feel that you should not shoot heavy conicals in your gun. I doubt that the original Howdah's shot heavy bullets because the roundball will give less kick and at the same time will have a much higher velocity.

Have fun. :thumbsup:

 

[Don]

I would question the use of a heavy conical also. I have seen at least one picture of a Howdah with a busted grip from shooting heavy loads and for what you paid for yours I'm sure thats the last thing you want to happen. A .570 ball is plenty massive and with a charge of 30 to 40 grains of powder it is going to put a world of hurt on just about anything that gets in its way. I'd play with the powder charges within reason and stick to round ball. If you really wanted to tinker I'd see about fitting it with some sort of rear sight. That would make it truely intimidating.

Don

 

[madcratebuilder]

I've used as much as a 50gr charge of FFFg behind a .610 patched (.010) round ball in my 20ga Howdah, that's as about as stout as I would care to shoot. 40 grs is less recoil and I'm sure less wear and tear.

 

[LeMat1856]

.
. dec 24 / 22:10


this is great !

it proves that experience is much more important than anything else in this sport.. to me, the logic was linear - my jp murray is .58 and shoots a conical therefore the .58 howdah should do likewise.. same calibers, same ballistics.. it's difficult for me to visualize any inconsistancy.

i still don't understand exactly why they're not the same, but it looks like all your advice is solidly contrary to my linear logic.. good thing i posted this before going out there and actually trying my theory.. let me see if this fits into the equation:

the difference must have something to do with the actual construction of each weapon.. the jp has a breech of 1 1/8" and tapers to 15/16" at the muzzle while the howdah is .985" breech and .825" at muzzle.. it's the larger, reinforced construction of the rifle that allows for higher powder/ball combinations not simply the nominal caliber.. live and learn.


......Yes ! !

It sounds like you have made up your mind that you are going to shoot a 400+ grain conical in your gun and you just want some of us to say it's ok to do that.

Well......."OK".

There. To quote many mothers, "Are you happy now?"

finally, i get the green light to do it !

Just kidding. :rotf:

rats.. back to square one. :v

one quick question for madcratebuilder:
how do you remove the barrel ? one source said use a "wedge puller" while another said all that did was scratch the stock... should i just whack the wedge on the left side and pull it from the right ?

happy holidays,

~d~

 

[madcratebuilder]

Hi daniel, I use a narrow brass punch to pull the wedge. I tried a wedge puller one time and screwed the pooch, maybe I don't know how to use one.

Merry Christmas

 

[LeMat1856]

.
. dec 25 / 13:10


thanks for the tip.. so it's just pulling the wedge - no hidden screws, pins, etc.

i'm not surprised there aren't any instructions with the puller.. i didn't even get a users manual with this brand new box....!

hey, pretty sweet xmas present.. looks like a revolving carbine to me (very rare).

ho, ho, ho... gotta go,

~d~

 

[nkbj]

Danger Will Robinson. Danger. Danger.

OK I was being goofy but I wanted to be.
A minie or conical WILL move in the second barrel. Maybe not until you're thirty miles from the ER but it will. And it might make that air space pressure wave grenade thing happen.
Please consider that a tight patch may be the most prudent to the application.

 

[madcratebuilder]

Danger Will Robinson. Danger. Danger.

OK I was being goofy but I wanted to be.
A minie or conical WILL move in the second barrel. Maybe not until you're thirty miles from the ER but it will. And it might make that air space pressure wave grenade thing happen.
Please consider that a tight patch may be the most prudent to the application.

That's why I load just a single barrel :bow: