The "Official" Tin Can Test

[Bretwalda]

OK :shocked2: ...I seen many people hint at this test in the forum :hmm: ... what tin can do you use and how do you perfrom this test to check for pellet penetration/retained energy? (If this is a smoothbore topic please move this post!!!)

 

[paulvallandigham]

You are looking to use a fairly thick wall, steel can- like those used to can TUNA. Don't bother with aluminum pop cans- lead cuts through them like a hot knife through butter! The whole point of the " test " is to give you some idea of the pellet energy of your chosen pellet SIZE to penetrate a target at a given distance.

With Black Powder shotguns, a 30 yard shot is a Long shot, particularly if the shotgun HAS NO CHOKE. But, even with choke, you cannot get the same high velocities with black powder loads as you get today with the modern Smokeless Powder charges used.

With modern shotguns, you add more powder to get more velocity to gain more penetration at distance.

With Black Powder shotguns, if you want more penetration, you choose a pellet size one or two sizes larger than what you might use with that modern gun. Adding more powder in a BP shotgun often results only in blown patterns, and all the pellet energy in the world is not going to help you kill a rabbit or bird if you don't hit it.

For tighter patterns with an Cylinder Bore shotgun, you use LESS powder- not more. Choked guns do give you the flexibility to try heavier powder charges to see if they pattern well in your gun with whatever choke it has, but because round pellet, like Round Balls, have such a poor Ballistics Coefficient, they lose energy and velocity very quickly, and extra muzzle velocity does not equate with extra velocity down range, beyond 20 yards. If your game is within 20 yards, you don't need any extra velocity, much less a choked gun to insure a clean kill!

A lot of the canned goods in the grocery store no longer come in steel cans. Many products now come in aluminum cans, and even in Paper cans with a thin foil on the inside. But, if you look carefully, you can still find some products, like Tuna that is canned in steel.

I buy Brown beans- the kind you serve with hot dogs-- in steel cans, that are 4 times as tall as a tuna can. With a tuna can, you face the bottom of the can towards the shooter, but with these bean cans, you could just stand them upright ON their bottoms. Some juice cans are still steel, in the 46 fl. oz. size. Those make nice plinking targets at 50 yds. for some off-hand shooting fun with your rifle, in addition to serving as a great " test medium" for your shotguns. Shoot to hit the ground under the can and watch how high they fly. If you get really good, one shooter can launch the can with his rifle, and another shooter can try to hit the can with his shotgun load. :shocked2: :thumbsup:

 

[roundball]

OK :shocked2: ...I seen many people hint at this test in the forum :hmm: ... what tin can do you use and how do you perfrom this test to check for pellet penetration/retained energy? (If this is a smoothbore topic please move this post!!!)

Your post should be fine here...its related to penetration testing for hunting.

Member DaveK put me on to the heavy metal "tuna can" idea several years ago, works perfectly.
Here's a 40 yard penetration test of #6's from my .62cal turkey load...and the load has dropped two turkeys where they stood, one at 40 and one at 30 yards.

So the can penetration test followed by the actual hands on experience from live game field results of two turkeys dropping in their tracks at distance, gave me confidence that it's an excellent, cheap, available, right sized test vehicle for shot penetration testing...since then there have been squirrels and crows.

 

[shootemup]

It's also a good way to get a child started. One of the great things about muzzleloading shotguns is that you can control the amount of kick the child gets. If the child can handle a load that will penetrate a vegetable can at 35 yards or so, they have a load that will take squirrels or rabbits.

 

[paulvallandigham]

Its nice of RoundBall to show you the pictures of his 40 yd. test. He overlooked telling you that his barrel is Jug Choked to FULL CHOKE. That is how he was able to get so many pellets on that can at 40 yds.

Don't expect the same tight pattern from a cylinder bore gun. The full choke adds about 5-10 yards of extended range, and velocity/pellet energy, due to the pellets traveling together out of a choked barrel for a longer distance, than when fired out of a cylinder bore gun.

When the pellets travel together, the pellets as a group push the air aside, and drag factors don't kick in until the pellets separate sufficiently to allow each pellet to travel through the air on its own. The pellets that hit the can at 40 yds. were probably located in the middle and to the rear of the shot load in the barrel as it was fired. They received the least amount of distorting of shape,( Notice the nice round holes in that can) and benefited from the outside pellets moving air aside for them. This is the " Core " pattern within any pattern of shot.

Where do the outside pellets go? Well, because they are mis-shapened, they tend to fall to the ground early, and disperse away from the POA quicker, so they often don't even show up on pattern paper at 40 yards. :hmm:

 

[roundball]

It's also a good way to get a child started. One of the great things about muzzleloading shotguns is that you can control the amount of kick the child gets. If the child can handle a load that will penetrate a vegetable can at 35 yards or so, they have a load that will take squirrels or rabbits.

I've really come to love Flint smoothbores...shot this pair of squirrels off the 2 foot wide trunk of a beech tree at 30 yards:

.54cal smoothbore
70grns Goex 3F
Two Oxyoke wads
1+3/8oz #5s
C/F OS card

 

[Greenmtnboy]

fourty yrds
full jug choke by Coyote Joe
42" American fouler by TVM
90 grns of ffg goex, ounce and a quarter of # 4 shot.

 

[roundball]

FYI on the goex can...from the point of view of "penetration testing", goex cans are paper thin...they're not like a thick heavy metal can like a tuna can.
#7.5s, maybe even #8s would probably go through a goex can at distance, but not something like a thick tuna can

 

[paulvallandigham]

:thumbsup:

 

[BrownBear]

FYI on the goex can...from the point of view of "penetration testing", goex cans are paper thin...they're not like a thick heavy metal can like a tuna can.
#7.5s, maybe even #8s would probably go through a goex can at distance, but not something like a thick tuna can

Careful now. There are tuna cans with (3-piece) and without (2-piece) the bottom seam. The old 3-piece varieties were a lot heavier than the contemporary 2-piece models. I'm betting today's standard 2-piece cans from the American Can Company and other sources aren't a whit heavier than that Goex can.

 

[roundball]

Don't know about all that...tuna cans sure seem a lot stronger than my goex cans...wonder if they're different metals

 

[BrownBear]

That's possible, plus the Goes cans just have longer "runs" of straight sheeting. All that folding in the smaller cans is to add rigidity without increasing weight or metal thickness. Just a heads up out there that the canning industry is going to thinner cans wherever possible.

It's all relative. My point is that your experience will hold true till you run out of the same kind of tuna cans. I bet it's even more complicated than that. Goex cans are taller and probalby heavier, so their might be more more resistance to movement at impact, allowing more penetration. Etc. Etc. Etc.

The thing that matters to me is that you've cross referenced your tuna can performance with actual hits on game. No amount of keypad punching, micrometer pinching or authority quoting can substitute for your field work.

 

[Greenmtnboy]

That's possible, plus the Goes cans just have longer "runs" of straight sheeting. All that folding in the smaller cans is to add rigidity without increasing weight or metal thickness. Just a heads up out there that the canning industry is going to thinner cans wherever possible.

It's all relative. My point is that your experience will hold true till you run out of the same kind of tuna cans. I bet it's even more complicated than that. Goex cans are taller and probalby heavier, so their might be more more resistance to movement at impact, allowing more penetration. Etc. Etc. Etc.

The thing that matters to me is that you've cross referenced your tuna can performance with actual hits on game. No amount of keypad punching, micrometer pinching or authority quoting can substitute for your field work.

No doubt BrownBear!
All my turkies have been thirty yrds or closer and dropped like I hit em with a mac truck.
I don't really want to shoot a bird at 40 yrds but feel confindent that if I had to, that bird would be destined for the freezer.
:thumbsup:
I did use my calipers on a goex can compaired to a tuna can and they were really close in thickness minus the ridges on the bottom of the tuna can,I had to cut the bottom outof the can then cut a clean, ridge free piece of metal off that .
I won't use another Goex can for it is a wast, I order my powder in bulk and transfer it to empty cans I have saved.

 

[BrownBear]

Yup. Could be moose tur.....uh.... NUGGETS.... arranged end to end rather than cans for all I care, long as it's verified with performance on game. I suppose if the moose were scoury and the....uh....nuggets....were too soft to handle, you might need a backup medium.

Now, where's that scientific reference for seasonal moose nugget textures related to diet? Must be somewhere here on the web. I'm betting there's also a formula for measuring moose nugget penetration depending on texture, with and without jug chokes.

Nah, just go out and shoot the darned thing to find out how far it works on game, then find your own artificial medium for comparison. Tuna cans are great till they change the tuna cans. I might use salmon cans instead.

Come to think of it, we don't have any moose right here, so buying and shipping the nuggets could get spendy. Maybe I should just go out and shovel up a buncha brown bear nuggets for my own test medium. It'd work.

 

[Joel/Calgary]

The way I heard the test, one uses a substantial steel can - juice, coffee, soup, etc. (of course, this was back when many things still came in substantial steel cans). Penetration of one side by the majority of pellets striking fairly square on meant the load was likely adequate at that range for upland, ducks, bunnies, head/neck shots on turkeys, and such. Penetration of both sides by the majority meant it was likely adequate for geese and body-shots on turkeys.

This was, naturally, somewhat simplified. Plus, I also found that how the can was supported (or not) affected the penetration.

Regards,
Joel