The Rifle Shop :brown bess

[sportster73hp]

After much debate and shopping I finally decided to order an 1769 bess from TRS. Looked at Pedersoli, Ima kits and the various Indian “non-firing “ models sold. The rifle shop version had the least negative comments and were deemed the most hc/pc I could find other than an expensive original.
My question today is does anyone else have one and their opinion? I do expect to wait for it so comments about delays are not needed , just the product.

 

[Grenadier1758]

It will be a collection of as cast parts. It can be made into a wonderful land pattern musket. Do get some of the books out there for the Brown Bess to get a better vision of what the completed musket will look like.

I would have them build the lock. I don't have access to all the heat treating furnaces to properly build up the springs and balance the springs.

They did a wonderful job on building the lock for my 1803 Harper's Ferry.

I would also recommend that you get some extra springs.

Uh @sportster73hp, a Brown Bess is a smooth bored musket and not a rifle.

 

[sportster73hp]

Sorry saying rifle is a habbit. Same as pistol instead of revolver.
I did have them build the lock for the same reason you mentioned.

 

[Grenadier1758]

A couple of members of my unit have the Rifle Shoppe's Long Land Pattern Musket, either from Narragansett Arms parts or from Rifle Shoppe kits. They are very good muskets. Unfortunately cost has driven most of the new members toward the Loyalist Arms muskets. As a unit reenacting the French and Indian War, we try to have all of us using the Long Land Pattern King's Musket.

 

[dave_person]

Hi,
I've built a lot of guns from TRS part sets including pistols, Besses, carbines, and Fergusons. I usually do not use their precarved stocks because they are sometimes wrong and have machine inletting defects. It sounds like you are looking for historical accuracy so my first recommendation is to buy Goldstein and Mowbray's book "The Brown Bess". A good addition to that is Bailey's "Small Arms of the British Forces in America". Pattern 1769s were not common during the first year or so of the AWI and most of those that were issued are marked "Dublin Castle" on the locks rather than "Tower" because the troops carrying them embarked from Ireland.

These 3 threads will help you with the project.

Pattern 1730 Brown Bess almost ready for inspection
https://www.muzzleloadingforum.com/...ght-infantry-fusil.116956/page-3#post-1697594https://www.muzzleloadingforum.com/threads/new-reworking-a-pedersoli-brown-bess.107405/
dave

 

[sportster73hp]

Thank you both. I am not into the reenacting part. Wanted a bess made of walnut and steel and brass the shorter pattern, steel ramrod and not the indian pattern. The tower name preferred . It didn’t have to meet a specific battle trim. I have other bp guns just not a bess

 

[sportster73hp]

Dave, i read the reworking of a pedersoli when it was a new thread and why i chose not to buy one . I also kept hearing how the made in India copies were problematic. IMA has kits from original parts which I would be afraid to shoot most with remarked locks. I will do the needed research before assembly and finishing will check out the books mentioned

 

[KC Clem]

It will be a collection of as cast parts. It can be made into a wonderful land pattern musket. Do get some of the books out there for the Brown Bess to get a better vision of what the completed musket will look like.

I would have them build the lock. I don't have access to all the heat treating furnaces to properly build up the springs and balance the springs.

They did a wonderful job on building the lock for my 1803 Harper's Ferry.

I would also recommend that you get some extra springs.

Uh @sportster73hp, a Brown Bess is a smooth bored musket and not a rifle.

I agree that the parts and castings you can get from Rifle Shoppe are first rate. Many times if the parts are in stock they will ship very quickly. If you need to have them assemble a lock, you might want to plan ahead. I'm coming up on one year waiting for a Virginia Manufactory lock to be put together. Just know that going in and you won't be surprised or upset. I'm sure when I get it, it will have been worth the wait.

 

[dave_person]

Hi,
Lately, TRS has been doing really well supplying parts. I was very pleased during all of 2020 in their service and received all my orders within 3 weeks, even when some parts were not in stock. I call them rather than order online and just call again or leave a message if they don't answer. Jane always calls me back within a day or so. I have had my frustrations with TRS over the years but I think their recent move to a bigger and better facility has made a very positive change.

dave

 

[sportster73hp]

I talked to a woman and she said “ we should have everything but the person that would know is out today”. I also would receive something in my email. Didn’t get it yet. I was prepared to wait a month or more, sooner is better.
Did not see the usual shopping cart routine so i called in person.

 

[sportster73hp]

Finally . Was told my kit ships tomorrow March 1. Now I realize i need the stuff to complete the kit. Scabbard for bayonet, sling, hammer stall (?) maybe a cartridge box. Any suggestions? Atlanta cutlery has a sling and belt/frog.

 

[FlinterNick]

I’m working on a TOW Brown Bess Kit, which according to Jess Melot the owner of the rifle shoppe, the 1746 Wilets kit was a kit he designed 30 years ago for CD Jarnigan Co. That was copied over by Track of the Wolf. On a difficultly level, I can’t really say much because its my first kit build. Its certainly a learning experience the first time around and I know what I would do differently the second time.

With that said I have the following TRS kits on order, 1817 common rifle, 1763 Charleville and a 1756 long land (in repair) And some Brown Bess lock kits.


For authenticity TRS is a close as you will get to a modern day original Copy.

Pedersoli makes a fine musket, I just don’t think it really fits the second model description they market it as, its more like a contracted musket or commercial musket in my opinion.

 

[Rifleman1776]

I’m working on a TOW Brown Bess Kit, which according to Jess Melot the owner of the rifle shoppe, the 1746 Wilets kit was a kit he designed 30 years ago for CD Jarnigan Co. That was copied over by Track of the Wolf. On a difficultly level, I can’t really say much because its my first kit build. Its certainly a learning experience the first time around and I know what I would do differently the second time.

With that said I have the following TRS kits on order, 1817 common rifle, 1763 Charleville and a 1756 long land (in repair) And some Brown Bess lock kits.


For authenticity TRS is a close as you will get to a modern day original Copy.

Pedersoli makes a fine musket, I just don’t think it really fits the second model description they market it as, its more like a contracted musket or commercial musket in my opinion.

Good for you. Doin' yer own thang. Some progress pics would be great.

 

[FlinterNick]

Good for you. Doin' yer own thang. Some progress pics would be great.

My first kit build, I probably shouldn’t have chosen a Brown Bess, but I’m drawn to it.

I did a brass noseband out of sheet brass with a rivet. Tried to copy one on a 1730 bess in Goldstein‘s book (and some advice from Dave Person). Nosecap is a little on the square side, but works for my liking.

 

[sportster73hp]

Ok, but now i am looking for stuff to complete the “kit”. Sling , Scabbard for bayonet and a cartridge box.

 

[lexington1]

I've built a couple TRS Brown Besses. They are not exactly like putting a Pedersoli kit together, but they are not particularly difficult either. I used their assembled locks and was pretty pleased with them. Track of the Wolf offers a good deal on their 1st Model Bess lock and I would bet it would probably work in the TRS precarved stock. I have one of the TOW Bess locks and will say it's nice, but I did have to tinker with it a little bit to get it to function correctly. All in all though I would say that lock is a a bargain. The early Bess has that long buttplate tang, which for me was probably the most difficult thing to inlet. The other thing that I sort of messed up on the first one I built was to make sure that the screw and wrist plate escutcheon are perfectly aligned and tapped correctly or it will be a little cocked and give you a sloppy fit.

 

[lexington1]

You are right on the money with your description of the Pedersoli Bess. What's funny is that several years ago I bought a Pedersoli kit that was missing just about all of its brass furniture. I thought about getting all Pedersoli stuff and build it but then I got the idea to make it into a commercial Bess by changing everything to first model hardware from The Rifle Shop. I even drilled the ramrod for a wooden rod and used larger pipes, etc. I used the Italian lock, but filed off all of the markings and engraved it 'Watkin', just like an original I have in my collection. It turned out pretty well I think. I think the Pedersolis are way better than the Indian stuff, but they still miss the mark as being a good copy of a 2nd Model Bess. Not only is the buttplate tang way off, the lock is a bit smaller than original Besses, and they are quite a bit less robust over all. I think they are generally built ok, but for the price of the Italian guns now I think an authentic TRS Bess (or TOW) is the way to go.


Pedersoli makes a fine musket, I just don’t think it really fits the second model description they market it as, its more like a contracted musket or commercial musket in my opinion.
[/QUOTE]

 

[FlinterNick]

You are right on the money with your description of the Pedersoli Bess. What's funny is that several years ago I bought a Pedersoli kit that was missing just about all of its brass furniture. I thought about getting all Pedersoli stuff and build it but then I got the idea to make it into a commercial Bess by changing everything to first model hardware from The Rifle Shop. I even drilled the ramrod for a wooden rod and used larger pipes, etc. I used the Italian lock, but filed off all of the markings and engraved it 'Watkin', just like an original I have in my collection. It turned out pretty well I think. I think the Pedersolis are way better than the Indian stuff, but they still miss the mark as being a good copy of a 2nd Model Bess. Not only is the buttplate tang way off, the lock is a bit smaller than original Besses, and they are quite a bit less robust over all. I think they are generally built ok, but for the price of the Italian guns now I think an authentic TRS Bess (or TOW) is the way to go.


Pedersoli makes a fine musket, I just don’t think it really fits the second model description they market it as, its more like a contracted musket or commercial musket in my opinion.

[/QUOTE]

There’s a lot of opinions as to what pedersoli copied.

Sandy McNab and Kit Ravensheer made a commemorative long land Brown Bess in the 1970’s. Coach Harness Co made the barrels and stocks, Reeves Ghoring might have made the brass components And pedersoli made the Grice Lock.

When that production ran out of the coach harness bess was when pedersoli began mass producing their so called second model bess which at the time wasn’t so bad, the older design was pretty decent. The later models began getting somewhat off and read CNC all over.

I don’t think the current model is really a copy of any Particular musket, but perhaps a copied over commercially designed gun like say the coach harness musket. Each of these companies kinda piggy backed off one another, and I think Miroku copied pededersoli but changed the guard shape as a way of saying it was their own pattern.

In my honest opinion, the pedersoli bess is a copy of a copy of a copy of a copy. Eventually a clone changes its original intended form.

But people keep buying pedersoli, There’s been much demand for them to change the pattern or add a new one, but why change when you’re the big dog on the block.

 

[bjarard]

There is a video series on youtube where someone goes through the complete build process for the TOW 1st BB. about 20 videos or so. Very detailed. As far as bayonet/scabbard, etc. I'd think the 2nd model bayonets would work. Those are on ebay.

 

[dave_person]

Hi,
Just curious, can anyone show me an original Brown Bess marked "Willets" before 1760? Moreover, can anyone show me an original ordnance issued Brown Bess marked "Woldridge" that was not a single sealed pattern gun (not issued)?

dave