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Think i nailed it but...

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mnbearbaiter

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I was able to pattern test the jug choked 12ga for the 3rd time over the weekend! I used the shot that i salvaged from the Fiocchi Golden Pheasant loads i purchased and all i can say is :bow: My load went like this, 70gr ffg Triple7, .070 nitro card, 1/2" T/C Bore Butter lubed fiber wad, 2oz buffered nickel plated Fiocchi GP #5, and a .030 os card that i punched a slightly off center hole in! At 30yds the gun averaged a pellet count of 130ish in a 10" circle and 90ish in a 10" circle at 40yds! Thats comparable if not better than alot of modern lead turkey loads! Now not to be a nay sayer, but the pattern starts to open up a little if i go up much in powder charge, and i like the way it shoots now, so that must mean that im at that max powder to shot ratio for the guns liking correct? Also i know Triple7 is a little hotter than BP, somethin like 15-20%, so i would actually be loaded up with the equivalent of 85-90gr BP, is that enough whoomp to push that heavy shot charge and cleanly harvest old tom at what i consider the guns', and my max range of 40ish yards? Also any idea on the fps of this load, i have a buddy with a chrono and i do intend to try it in the future, my guess is 1100-1200, am i in the ballpark?
 
Those results sound like you are getting great turkey-killer shot density at the targets. I will be interested in learning the chronograph results; I would guess :idunno: that the velocity would be more in the 800-900 fps range with that 2 oz. load of shot.
 
I suspect you have a very low velocity load there but I have very little experience with T-7, I avoid that Witch's Brew. Low velocity loads always produce more dense patterns than do full power loads. I'd suggest you try a penetration test. There are lots of materials one can use to compare penetration. You might fire a modern shotshell into a phone book, see how many pages the pellets penetrate, then repeat with your fowler load. Most easy is the steel can test but do be sure it's steel, anything will penetrate aluminum. My preference is a steel Goex can and I would not hunt with a load that won't penetrate both sides. Tight patterns are nice to see but if the pellets won't penetrate and break bones it isn't worth much.
 
Keep in mind that the relationship between muzzle velocity and velocity at 30 yards is neither simple nor linear. To put it another way, a difference of 300 fps at the muzzle does not translated into anything like a difference of 300 fps at 30 yards. I believe that there is also a change that takes place around the speed of sound. A number of manufacturers have produced sub-sonic loads that take advantage of this, and they work very, even in the 30-40 yard range.

Paul V. may have a link to data on this.

In modern shot-shell ballistics, a given powder charge will often produce very similar velocities with different shot loads. The chamber pressures rise with the increase in shot load, sometimes quite dramatically. I would guess that the relatively lower burn rate of BP would reduce this effect, but I cannot speculate on how much.

At any rate a penetration test will tell you what you need to know for hunting purposes.
 
The Lyman Shotshell Reloading Manual tables list MVs from 1135 up to 1335 for birdshot loads. All those loads lose most of that velocity within the FIRST 20 YARDS. The Fastest load listed is a load of #2 shot at 1330 MV; its down to 1035 fps. at 20 yds.

When the weight of the pellet decreases( due to smaller diameter in size), More VELOCITY is Lost in that first 20 yards. For instance, a lot of #9 shot fired at 1200 fps MV is down to 820 fps. at 20 yds.

Pellet energy also tells the story: That #2 shot load at 1330 fps. has a pellet energy per Ft. lbs. of 19.09. At 20 yards, its down to only 11.79 ft.lbs. That's a loss of almost 40% of the energy each pellet has at the MUZZLE.

That #9 shot pellet has at that 1200 fps. MV has pellet energy of 2.40 ft.lbs. But, at 20 yds, its down to 1.12 ft. lbs. That is a 53% loss in Ft. lbs. of energy per pellet in that short distance.

The tables don't list data at 10 yards( 30 feet). And, you can't really simply divide difference at 20 yds, by 2 to get an accurate estimation. Those pellets will be going a bit more fast at 10 yards than that kind of math will indicate.

I did look at data listed in a table in the old Greener book, "The Gun and its Development", as it shows reading at 5yds( 15 feet) and in 5 yd increments on out to 60 yds. Unfortunately, it doesn't list values for either #2 shot, nor for #9 shot. They list a #10 shot, which is as close as we can probably come considering how old the data is in that source.

Using the data for #6 shot size, Greener shows a 4 dram( 110 grains) load behind 1 1/4 oz. of #6 shot giving 1199 fps( close to 1200 as you can get) MV at 5 yds. At 10 yds. that is down 1177, a LOSS OF 2% VELOCITY. At 15 yds. its down to 1159, a loss of 4.4% velocity. At 20 yds, its down to 1122 fps., a loss of 6.5% velocity. At 25 yds. the velocity is shown as 1082 fps, a loss of 9.8%. At 30 yds, its down to 1034 fps, a loss of 13.8% velocity. If you plot these numbers on a graph, you will see an increasingly downward curve, that is NOT quite Linear, even tho' this load began just above the Speed of Sound.

This "trombone bell curve" is typical of what you see for Round Balls as they lose velocity after leaving the muzzle. The heavier, larger balls carry more mass, and therefore can be shot over a longer distance, before they begin showing a Lot of drop. But, when they get far enough from the muzzle they drop much faster than do smaller, light pellets, resembling the bell of a Tuba, instead of a Trombone!

There is a footnote on that page in Greener's book that quotes another expert, speaking at a symposium for Gunmakers, in 1896 saying that it appears that velocities are improving since powders are getting better, over the original data taken in 1878.

I mention this just to caution readers about placing too much "faith" in old data. Everything about Everything to do with our sport has seen improvements since the Am. Revolution. What we shoot today is much better in all ways than what the Founding fathers had available in that time. :hatsoff:
 
Thank you Paul!

I thought that you had that around somewhere.

Note that the 1330 #2 shot drops from 1330 to 1035 at 20 yds. That's a big drop. (Lymans.)

The Greener #6 shot drops from 1199 to 1122 at 20 yds.


Of course given the different centuries, test equipment, powder and shot, it doesn't mean much. But it certainly doesn't suggest that the increase at the muzzle will make a similar difference at 30 yards.

Greener's velocities do not suggest much of an effect from dropping below the speed of sound.

Pellet size is pretty important for down-range energy, as you have always stated.

Lorne
 
Yeah, 2oz is alot of shot, but than again Triple7 is a different animal! I am probably giving the gun credit for more velocity than it actually has, maybe up to 1000fps more! I started with 1 3/4oz of shot and tried it it #4-#6 shot! It paterned a little better with the #6, but #6 shot tends to peter out a little faster than #5, and the pattern was too thin for my liking with #4's! I then kept powder charge the same and added a 1/4oz of shot and it was yet again better! I tried the 1 3/4oz loading with different powder charges, but not the 2oz load! Maybe thatll be my next assignment come fall, try a penetration test and see what its made of, as well as try jumping up powder charge in 5gr increments, it may hold it pattern well enough with 80gr or more and that would certainly turn a turkey coffin dead :hatsoff:
 
Isnt a crack heard when the sound barrier is broke? If so, the gun had a weird, almost crack when shot :idunno: Ive always been partial to #5 lead, as it keeps its down range energy better than #6, and has more pellets than a similar #4 load! Kinda a happy medium thats always worked for me!
 
#5's are good. The AKC doesn't allow any shot heavier than # 6 for their field trials, which sort of switched me to #6's. I've seen pheasant come down at very long ranges at those trials (luck was certainly involved). When I shoot a 20 gauge and one ounce loads, I really want #6's.

But, 1.25 ounces of #5's work very well.

There are more than one good answer. (Something about 1/2 pound of # N's in a four gauge.)
 
That may be, but there was/is a very good field test result of the amount of energy needed to properly penetrate/kill a turkey at 40yds! Even though a #5 pellet is only a few thousandth larger in diameter than a #6 pellet, the energy it retains at that range is substantially more! These tests were done with a MV of 1200fps if my memory serves me right! For small game and pheasants, #6 is an excellent load, but its hard to argue modern day science when its implemented into hunting conditions! Ive shot alot of turkeys with #6, and will never bash the stuff, but i believe in my case here in MN where #4 shot is the largest allowed for turkey hunting, if a good pattern can be achieved with #5 that its the perfect combo of pellet count/pellet energy! If shooting a heavy non tox load, then #6 in that shot will usually be pellet for pellet as heavy as a #5 lead pellet!
 
Hot, expanding Gases escaping the muzzle will "break the Sound Barrier" long before the velocity of shot is sufficient to do it. Its not if you hear a "Crack" with the gun fires, but what CAUSES the crack. For most BP guns, its the gas- not the shot load that is breaking the Sound barrier and creating the "crack" you hear.

In my data, I was speaking about #2 birdshot- not a 2 oz. load. In fact, the Lyman manual does not say what load of shot its using in its testing- very frustrating for those of us interested in those details.

There was nothing close to the #2 birdshot( .015" in diameter) load from the Lyman manual, in the data I have from The Greener book. I chose to use #6 shot, because its far more commonly used in this country for hunting a wide range of animals. That 4 dram load of powder would be a "Hot" load in anybody's gun, BP, or Smokeless, shooting a 12 ga. or smaller bore.

From the text in the Greener book, they were trying to achieve a residual velocity close to 880 fps. at 40 yards. At that velocity, they believed that enough pellet energy would be present in the size shot they used to make a clean kill.
 
Sorry, I was muddled this post with the double post on pheasants. Turkey hunting today is a world unto itself.

(And there's nothing wrong with #5's for pheasant either)
 
Good info, wonder what my load is doin at 40yds? I have 2 options, less shot or more powder if im not comfortable with penetration test results!
 

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