Tin can penetration test

[CoyoteJoe]

We've all heard the story of testing our birdshot loads by shooting a tin can. If the pellets penetrate the can it is said they will kill ducks and such. I thought I'd give this a test using a modern 12 gauge shotshell as a control standard.
We don't buy a lot of canned goods and the wife is a dedicated recycler so test cans were in short supply but I did scrounge up a few without raiding the neighbors trash.
Someone had mentioned a Campbells soup can. I found that when I flattened the can my staple gun drove through both sides and stapled it nicely to the target backer! Nothing learned there except that not all cans are created equal!
I then set out a 3 pound coffee can (OK, a 39 ounce can) at 40 yards. I chose that distance because as a kid back in Ohio I had learned that 40 yards was about the limit for #6 shot on tough old ringnecks.
I first tried a load of 60 grains 3fg and 90 grains volume #6 shot. That load from my 28 gauge hit the can with 18 pellets, none of which penetrated. Then I tried a 70 grain equal volume load and hit the can with 14 pellets but again, not fully penetrated. Dents were much larger than with the previous load and some cracked open on the inside but no pellets actually got through.
I then tried a Federal "game load" of one ounce sixes from the 22" barrel of my Winchester 1300 pump with "improved modified" choke tube. Hit the can with 23 pellets but only 5 penetrated! Those that penetrated were all near the bottom and I suspect that the can moved with those that hit higher up and thus reduced their penetration.
Lastly I tried the equal volume load at 25 yards and got 20 hits with 17 pellets fully penetrating the can. The three that failed to penetrate looked as if they had first skipped off the dirt before hitting the can. What a difference 15 yards does make!
So what did I learn from my tin can test? First, it all depends on the can! A Goex powder can or a heavy coffee can is a lot tougher than soup and tuna cans! Didn't some famous hunter say "Always use enough can"? I may have gotten that quote wrong but you get the idea.
At forty yards the penetration of the factory shotshell was marginal and coincides with my own pheasant hunting experience. The equal volume black powder load was only a little behind the Federal shotshell in penetration. The 60/90 load was clearly inferior at 40 yards. I didn't try that load at 25 (out of cans) but based on how well the 70/70 load did at 25, I'd expect the 60/90 load may also be OK at that distance, max.
Lastly, #6 lead shot losses penetration rapidly, the difference between 25 and 40 yards was remarkable. :grin:

 

[BS]

Manny years ago we were in a old junk yard shooting STUFF. I shot a car fender with a load of 6s, it just dusted the paint off. Then I shot it with a load of 2s..........an area about the size of a basket ball was pushed in like a shallow bowl!..........I was very impressed!

 

[dgold]

I have used plasticine (spelling ???) the stuff kids make model stuff out of . Comparing the penetration into the plasticine between a commercial load and the m.l. shotgun. I wonder if thats a ligit test or not?? Anyone have an idea about this?

 

[jim gray]

I don't know about using the material alone to determine the effectiveness of the load. Using it to compare the penetration to that of a modern shot shell should be okay though; since you have an idea of the power of the modern cartridge and are shooting it into the same medium.

I have heard two rules of thumb regarding checking the effectiveness of the load. One is the afforementioned tin can load and the other is to use plywood. Plywood has the same drawbacks as the cans though. It comes in different thickness and not all plywood is the same.

I tested my twelve guage double barrel on tin cans. I also saw the difference that shot size makes. With 7 1/2, 6, & 4 shot I noticed a tremendous difference in penetration and energy.

I shot a squirrel at about thirty yards with some shot that a friend gave me. My friend swears that mixed shot loads are the way to go and the shot he gave me was a mix of 4's and 7 1/2's. When I skinned the squirrel I found a dozen of the 4's which had passed through the squirrel and rested right under the skin on the opposite side, but there were no 7 1/2's in it at all. I don't know if they didn't even get to the squirrel or just lost so much energy that they didn't go through, but I switched to straight 4's or 6's. I don't mix the shot anymore and I do not use 7 1/2 shot at all.

 

[CoyoteJoe]

Right on Flash, I never got the mixed shot concept. The way I see it, if you actually need the penetration of the 4s then the 7 1/2s count for nothing and you have only half a load of the size that does count. Your experience is a perfect example of why mixed sizes is not a good idea.
I've no doubt that #4 shot would have drilled through the 40 yard coffee can, but I'd have hit it with only about half as many pellets. In the center of the pattern that would still be enough pellets but at the outer edge there would be holes where a bird or bunny could slip through unscathed or only "winged" with a pellet or two.
I never had much use for "fours", #5 is about as large as I'll go in lead shot. Fours deliver deadly penetration to 60 yards or more but it takes a very tight choke to keep the pattern thick enough at 40 yards and I'm just not a full choke shooter. Fives are good for tougher critters like big jack rabbits or snowshoes while still putting enough pellets in an ounce and a quarter load. But fives are often hard to find in the smaller stores that can't stock everything you might want.

 

[paulvallandigham]

Order your #5 shot on line, or very early in the year so your dealer can find a source, and get it for you. I like to support local dealers, but only if they will support me. I only use #5 for hunting, and an occasional " Annie Oakley" shooting match with my trap gun, so a 25 lb bag lasts me several years.

If mixed shot loads really worked, you would see all manufacturers of modern shotshells offering them for sale every Fall. This is one wheel that did not need to be re-invented by anyone, for the reasons stated. #7 1/2 shot is fine for dove on windy days, and quail, but for squirrel, and larger game birds, #6 is a minimum, and I prefer using the #5. Its a great compromise between Number of pellets in a pattern, and down range energy, when comparing that shot with #4 or #6 shot. It has the energy to kill out to 40 yds, and it has so much more shot in the load than #4 does that the added weight and down range energy of the #4 is made up for by additional pellets in the pattern hitting the game animal with the #5 shot.

 

[BS]

I too am a big fan of the #5 shot, but not when shooting open choked guns, unless you want too get really close.

I just did a can test [13.5oz can on a stick], with a load of:

7.5 hard shot at 25yds.

I got 20 hits, 2 where on the sides, 1 hit the double rim. Of the other 17, 13 went thru on side, one stuck in the paper.

#6 copper plated.

12 hits, 4 on the sides. All 8 penitrated the front, 2 both sides.

What does this prove? More is better, maybe.

What I think it really does prove, is that you need a choke to get good patterns, letting you less shot and more velosity! Or bigger shot with more penitration.

 

[CoyoteJoe]

I agree BS, trying to stretch the range of a cylinder bore hits the law of diminishing returns real quick.

 

[J.D.]

Well, it seems that several of us had the same idea.

I used empty Goex cans, shot at 30 long steps, with 80 gr FFG, 1-.200 card wad, 120gr equivalent of #5 shot, and an 1/8 thick slice of a felt wad, over shot.

All shooting was done with an 11 ga Italian bess.

The cans were placed on a log, with the can leaning against a stump.

The first shot at 30 long steps had only five hits with all of them penetrating the front of the can. Most pellets deeply dented the back of the can, but did not penetrate the back.

The same load at 20 long steps gave 15 hits with all but 2 penetrating. Those two that did not penetrate hit on the side of the can. Two pellets penetrated the back of the can, and a two more split the metal on the back.

A second load of 70 gr FFG, 1 .200 card, 110 gr equivalent of #5 shot, and a slice of felt wad, over shot, gave 5 hits with all penetrating the front of the can at 30 long steps.

The same load at 20 long steps only gave 4 hits with all penetrating. Then the rains came and testing ceased.

For some reason, I knelt down to shoot this shot instead of standing, as in the other three shots. The 4 hits were high on the can, so it is possible that the log that the can was sitting on blocked some of the shot.

I might add that the log the can was sitting on was somewhat flat, but for the can to rest against the the stump, the bottom of the can was a little below the top of the log it was sitting on.

None of the pellets that hit the can head on bounded off. All penetrated.

Obvioulsy more testing is in order, but based on this first test, I will have to conclude that 1 and 1/2 more shot than powder, by volume, has more than sufficient killing power on small game at 30 yards.

For some reason I did not experience the patterns previously found in patterning test. I'm not really sure why I had so few hits at 30 steps. Patterns with this load are usually better than those of today.

Not only does one neeed to use enough can, but one also needs to use enough shot. :v

As to the mixed shot charges, I have to agree completely, that they area a complete waste of shot and powder.
J.D.

 

[jim gray]

I'll try to find some 5's and try them, Joe, but from what I've experienced with 4's and 6's I've no doubt that that'll be a great size for general use.

 

[WV_Hillbilly]

Remember that some cans are made of "tin" (some type of coated & alloyed lightweight steel), while others are made almost entirely of aluminium. Yes, that would make quite a bit of difference in using both types to do penetration tests.

You should get more consistent test results by using a consistent medium for your testing--IF possible. Still your test results are very similar to what myself (and others) have found out with front loading shotguns, mixed size shot loads, and standard shotshell cartridges & loads. I also want to thank you (and others) who have inquisitive personalities and have initiated independent testing procedures.

Regards, and shoot safely,
WV_Hillbilly

 

[CoyoteJoe]

Thanks Hillbilly. Rifle and handgun shooters learned long ago that penetration in metal or wood can not be correlated to penetration in animal tissue. I think any such test is of some value only if compared to some load of known performance as a control. That's why I tested the 12 gauge shotshell with the same shot size on the same cans. Ballistic gelatin may be a bit excessive but "wet pack", stacks of wet paper, maybe wouldn't be too much hassle to try. I found that the #6 shot wouldn't penetrate more than about 60 sheets of a dry Cabelas catalog, think I'll try some saturated catalogs. Gotta find some use for the junk mail! :grin:

 

[Hoyt]

Probably the best and surely most expensive turkey shot on the market for modern shotguns is mixed shot...bout $6.00 a pop for #4, #5 & #7 triplex shell.

Nitro Hevi Shot

 

[hawk]

when mixing shot sizes is buffer needed?

 

[paulvallandigham]

Yes. Even then, the heavier shot will shoot through the lighter shot, pushing it to the outside of the patterns.

 

[ffffg]

wheweee! ive been gone for awhile and i see you guys have been having fun.. ok, im the tin can guy, but this came orriginally from gosh i forget his name someone will comeup with it.. hes a famouse bp crow shooter, duck hunter etc etc, and wrote a booklet on it all..used a 5/8 dowel rod for loading sxs in the boat, so he didnt worry about shooting or loosing one, kept several around in the car and in the boat... works for me too. anyway down to science.. the tin can doesnt matter, its what you compare it to. shoot it with the ol reliable modern pheasant/duck/goose load and get similar results with the bp gun so you can go hunting.. the pennetration is very important, coupled with maximum range (minimum pattern density) as the bp must have the same pennetration as ol reliable, and then your reduce your shooting distance and hunting style to get within a killing pattern range.. you juggle loads and shot size around until you get your max huting range for that gun .. now are you wing shooting or body shooting? wing shots wont take any where near as much pennetration as a body shot.. as in the original post quite abit before this thread i stated that with cylinder bore body shots will work best.. it will give you some more distance, if the load is correct.. . use about one shot size larger for bp as you would with modern load. thats about 5 lead shot for pheasant, .. it will make a big diffeence in the tin can at 35 yards compared to number 6. .. .. a large campbel tomatoe juice steel can ( i belive it is anyway) it will give good test for body shot pennetration.. wing shots take less power, but need more density hence the choke discussions that come up here from time to time.. if you have a choked gun then you can go for smaller shot and wing shots.. this is about body shots and cylinder bore.. i do believe that body shots will net more birds unless your pretty close and a quick shot.. .. ... back to body shots, its stated in shotgun manuals that three body shots are suffiecient to get them down to the ground( with enough pennetration to go thru feathers, guts etc to the lungs heart, breast mussle is what you want its the biggest target and it will bring them down.... then sometimes the real work begins finding them, they will crawl into the brush, into a hole etc, .. from the butt side on a duck in winter youd better be pennetrating that can one side on the flat pretty well.. dont count glances on the edge of the can.. .. draw a picture of a duck body and put a tin can under it and shoot it at 35 yards.. if you get one or two pellets into the body vitals and pennetrate the can your in the pink.. in my shot gun 85 grains 3f, 110 grains(equivelient in measure) number four bismuth will smack them pretty good.. 16 guage cylinder bore.. its good to 35 yards for body shots at 40 degrees.. i have pattern data, can data, and load data for each 10 degrees from 80 degrees to -20 degrees for that gun.. ..my notes shows about 50 percent pattern at 35-40 yards..... for knickle plated number 5 or 5 1/2 i like best for pheasant which we dont have much of around here, i use 80 grains 3fg and 90 grains equivent shot..it gives me 52 percent pattern at 35-40 yards at 70 degrees.. when it gets cold/cold i increase shot, (increase powder just a little,) and use plastic buffer and shot cups. PLASTIC BUFFER INCREASES PRESSURES so dont over do it. just a little difference maybe less, you must work up each load for safety.... shot really spreads when it gets cold out.. using three fg is not for begginners, you MUST measure each load on your hand that is count the number of fingers it covers, and if its off (too deep, too low) you PULL THE LOAD.. doesnt matter if the fattest goose the closest youve ever seen is flying over you pull the load or youl ruin the gun or worse.. i cringe telling some of you to use three f, if you pattern at 20 degrees, go out shooting at 8o degrees and double charge youl have a huge problem.. its not like loading shotgun shells where the load wont fit.. you have to have a level head and use common sence..use 2fg for a year, at least..until youve shot the rod, or double charged or something, and found out this is not a game.. its SEROIUS BuISNESS!!!! if you want the best way to measure pennetration, they are handing out phone books right now. get about 50 of them, old ones work fine, as they wil be throwing them away.. shoot the phone book on a solid surface like a board or steel.. measur the average pennetration by measuring each pellet hit depth and writing it on the cover by the entry hole,, then averagge them for your pennetraton for that load..i use a one inch micrometer and measure each pellets number of pagges pennetration.. then i count every pellet in each 1/4 of the 30 inch circle and record it..and write down the percentage, yardage, shot type, load,lube, wad, pennetration and TEMPERATURE.... .. heres the 80 3f number 5 lead shot (with 90 gr equivelent) data in a square on a page in my file.. its one of doznes of squares taken from dozens of pages of tests..youl gett alot of bad patterns or poor pennetration, so you can keep buisy at this.. the x axis is shot size, the y axis is temperature and they converge with the load in that square, . the best load for number 5 shot was this load as shown above at 70 degrees, it had in a thirty inche circle (four sections each of) 30 hits, 32 hits, 20 hits and 28 hits.. that would be 110 out of 212 pellets giving about 52 percent.. the phone book penetration is .310 inch..thats lots of power and darn good pattern for smooth bore, again at 7o degrees. when the temp goes up youl get blown patterns or less than ennough hits at 35 yards.. if you drop alot below 70 degrees pattern density will increase, but pennetration will drop.. so do it again at 50 degrees.. when you get to 10 degrees and colder things start getting pretty tough.. both on the pattern board, and the hands.. keep at it.. you dont have to get carried away as much as i do, but be aware of what is happening in the relationship between the bird being hunted, pattern, pennetration, shot size and temperature.. dave...

 

[Hoyt]

I don't mix the shot..I put small shot in first and then big shot on top. I don't use buffer. I tried the cornmuffin thing per Caywood and got terrible patterns.

 

[rayb]

you're refering to V M Starr, from South Dakota, i think

rayb

 

[ffffg]

correct rayb! punch vm starr in your search engins or go to
[url] http://members.aye.net/~bspen/starr.html[/url]

and it should pop up somewhere with his booklet... great reading.. dave