Traditional paper patched bullet hunting

[Brent]

I don't know if this is traditional or not. But I'll let you guys be the judge.

On the last evening of this year's deer season I was desperate enough that I took my ugly gun. It is an underhammer muzzleloader that I built. 45 caliber, with an 18-twist Badger barrel. It is a special purpose "bean field" gun, and I was going to hunt a bean field so it seemed appropriate.

Anyway, in the last minute of the season, 6 does and fawns ran out into the field from the North. My postdoc who had never yet shot a deer tried a shot from the east side. He missed judged the range and missed by a lot. Those deer ran to the west and my left and stopped 200 yds out on the edge of the field. They were prancing and fidgeting and about the leave when I pulled the trigger on one of the larger does.

So the real purpose of this story is to show you what happens when a deer gets hit with a 475 gr paper patched flatnosed bullet backed by 106 grs of Swiss 1.5 fg. The pictures are pretty self explanatory. I use these same bullet in all of my .45 caliber cartridge rifles, though usually I make them heavier. The bullet was either 40:1 or pure lead. I would wager on 40:1 though.

Bullet hit left shoulder blade, exited perfectly perpendicular on the same spot on the right shoulder. Two ribs were centered and shattered, and both lungs where hit but not the heart or a whole lot of major plumbing. The deer ran like a greyhound for 150 yds in deep snow before falling twice, and the last time expiring. I don't think I have ever seen a deer run as fast and low as this one did.

I have shot deer with this rifle at much shorter ranges, 10-30 yds, and only gotten quarter-sized holes.


Entrance hole (pencil)

Exit hole (pencil eraser)

Left (entrance) side ribs

Right (exit) side rib cage

Right (exit) shoulder blade. It is not only holed, it is pretty well shattered. The left side shoulder blade was also holed and shattered.

Brent

 

[bingo1952]

Nice job on the deer. Hey if you had hit him with a round ball he wouldn't have gone more than six feet.
:rotf: :blah: :surrender: :hatsoff:

 

[rabjr]

Am I correct in assuming this special purpose bean field gun is scoped? Shooting a modern bullet wrapped with paper? I don't believe this is posted in the right forum as I see nothing Traditional about it.

 

[tg]

I would not call it a truely traditional hunt as the modern bullet design is intended to be ballisticaly superior to the ball or connical bullets of the past, but many use modern bullets and sights where leagal so you have a lot of company, congrats on the hunt the venison tastes the same whether taken with traditional gear or not.There is no crime in useing modern gear it is just best not to try and spin it into the traitional realm for the benifit of those who are just getting started and are trying to sort out the old from the new, not saying you did this, you came across very honest and factfull, once again congrats on the hunt.

 

[Rancocas]

Looks like a lot of wasted, bloodshot meat. My .30-06 does about the same kind of damage on a deer - which is why I don't use it on deer anymore.

 

[Kentuckywindage]

wow im really surprised that it went so far after that hit. Just goes to show you that it really doesnt matter what projectile you use, some deer have the will power to stay alive and run like a bat out of hell.

 

[Idaho Ron]

Am I correct in assuming this special purpose bean field gun is scoped? Shooting a modern bullet wrapped with paper? I don't believe this is posted in the right forum as I see nothing Traditional about it.

I don't see why a Paper patched bullet can not be traditional. They were used in the mid 1800's for target. No they probably were not used much for hunting but who is to say that a guy somewhere said heck I can hit that deer with my whitworth and did it. the art of wrapping a piece of lead in paper is not a new thing. I don't see where he said anything about using a scope.
It is funny that some guys will scream this thread does not fit, BUT that same guy will have a gortex coat, boots, and pants. Modern Camo, and cover scents.
But you can't talk about a piece of lead with a paper patch. The thread belongs as written as far as I can see. Ron

 

[bigbore442001]

My reading of the rules seems to lead me to the conclusion that the rules deal with scoped inline rifles. Your gun being an underhammer using a paper patched bullet seems traditional to me. In fact I wish you would post a picture of it so we can all drool. At least I would.

 

[boar]

:thumbsup: I thought the underhammers were Traditional. Some people get Jealous. Heck of a shot in my book. Dilly

 

[rabjr]

:thumbsup: I thought the underhammers were Traditional. Some people get Jealous. Heck of a shot in my book. Dilly

If thats directed at me I assure you I am in no way jealous.

 

[Idaho Ron]

I don't know if this is traditional or not. But I'll let you guys be the judge.

On the last evening of this year's deer season I was desperate enough that I took my ugly gun. It is an underhammer muzzleloader that I built. 45 caliber, with an 18-twist Badger barrel. It is a special purpose "bean field" gun, and I was going to hunt a bean field so it seemed appropriate.

The 45 that I have is a 1-18 twist and I like shooting paper patched bullets. I am interested in seeing your rifle. Also what was you bullet?
From the pictures I am kind of surprised that there was so much blood shot. The fact that the deer was startled and had a dose of adrenalin was probably the reason she went as far as she did.
My son shot his first ML deer this year with a paper patched 460 gr bullet in his Fast twist TC Renegade. The hunt he was on was open to any weapon so he wanted to use his ML. Ron

 

[Idaho Ron]

:thumbsup: I thought the underhammers were Traditional. Some people get Jealous. Heck of a shot in my book. Dilly

They are traditional, and Yes I think a 200 yard shot on a deer is a heck of a shot too. :thumbsup:

 

[Brent]

Hmmm,
an interesting set of replies.

No it is not scoped, though it could be.

If a paper patched bullet and an underhammer are not traditional, please dig up Ned Roberts and explain that to him in person. Metford, Gibbs, Henry, Rigby, Pope, Billinghurst, Hilliard, and a pile of other traditionally dead folks would also benefit from knowing this.

The underhammer rifle is probably the most American of all rifle actions. It dates to the mid or early 1800s at least. There were others, Swiss and German in particular but Americans are really responsible for the best of them.

As for using a roundball with better results - not hardly. At 200 yds, not a chance. I've shot many deer with roundballs, and they work really well, but they are not to be confused with hunting at 200 yds.

I have also used the same bullet, rifle, and powder to shoot deer at less than 10 yds. Nothing like this happened. So, it is an interesting example of the variance of results.

Brent

 

[rabjr]

Well thats fine and I won't say anymore but when you start a thread like this, "I don't know if this is traditional or not. But I'll let you guys be the judge." And state shooting 200 yards, that raises eye brows. Anyways grats on your deer.

 

[tg]

"If a paper patched bullet and an underhammer are not traditional, please dig up Ned Roberts and explain that to him in person.'

I don't believe they used the modern style/design bullets we have today, if you want to have a traditional hunt with bullets it would be best to use the bullets that correspond with the time period of the gun being used, when usimng a centerfire bullet in a ML you pretty much have the same thing as when using it in a cartridge round the only difference is no cartridge and it loads from the front, and loading from the front is only a PART of ML shooting and hunting, when one end up usimng gear that gives the same ballistics and/or sighting capabilities as a centerfire one has missed the point of traditional ML shooting/hunting nothing wrong with such gear it is just a stretch to call it traditional when compared to the most common ML gear used in the ML period.The under hammer guns were developed in the New England area probably in the 1830's and are very much a traditional type of gun, whether the whole package is traditional or a mix of modern and old depends on what you put down the barrel and the sighting system used, it takes more than just the gun alone to make up a traditional hunting outfit

 

[Brent]

Ron,
You asked for a picture so I'll show you one, but please squint hard and wear dark glasses. This is the second ugliest gun I've ever seen and it's all my fault since I made it from a Blue Grouse/H&A action.

It does shoot rather well however. As it is set up for hunting, it has two rear sights. A standard barrel sight set for 100 yds and a tang sight (which may be the not so traditional part), set for 200 yds.

The shot was made from crosssticks and I was pretty confident of the distance.

The deer was a small buck fawn shot in 2006 at very close range. Same everything but no bloodshot meat.

Brace yourself...

My apologies for anyone whose eyeballs are bruised from that picture.

Here is the bullet, except that these have a round nose instead of the 0.2" or so meplat (different nose punch in the swage):

Brent

 

[tg]

That is not a bad looking gun, generaly the underhammers just look odd because most are used to more conventional styles, these guns were quite popular on the frontier,I suspect they had a little slower barrels and are very much under rated and under represented today, I know a youg guy who was in the top three more times than not shooting a Hopkins and Allen gun some years back.

 

[longcruise]

Brent welcome to the board.

I think the bloodshot effect might be due to shattering the shoulder blades.

You seem to know a bit about pp. Might your last name be Danielson?

 

[Brent]

Might your last name be Danielson?

Aye, it might be...

 

[Idaho Ron]

Brent is a great looking rifle. What rear sights are you using? Ron