Traditional sidelock vs NW legal non-traditional front stuffer

[chorizo]

Got a buddy who's son is getting a non-traditional, yet NW legal front stuffer from his Dad. It got me to thinking and I realized that it meets all the requirements of the F&G...loose powder, front stuffer, traditional musket cap, open non-electronic sights, lead bullet with no sabot......it is just in a non-traditional configuration/form.

So what would be my beef? Well, no logical one. Appearances are just that and I would really be talking out of both sides of my mouth to oppose the use of them while at the same time preaching that a semi-auto is not a full auto and despite the looks, is no different in function that other semi-autos.

So if these guys can help keep demand up for supplies so that companies will want to continue to produce to meet all of our needs and make a profit, they are our allies, not our foes.

Below is the requirements for muzzleloader hunts in Idaho:

LEGAL IN MUZZLELOADER-ONLY SEASONS
A muzzle loading rifle or musket which:

1. Is capable of being loaded ONLY from the muzzle.
2. Is equipped with a single or double-barrel.
3. Is loaded ONLY with loose black powder OR other loose synthetic black powder.
4. Is loaded with a patched round ball OR a conical, unjacketed projectile comprised wholly of lead or lead alloy. No sabots.
5. Is loaded with a projectile that is within .010 of an inch of the bore diameter.
6. Is equipped ONLY with a flint OR a percussion cap OR a musket cap. 209 primers are prohibited.
7. Is equipped with an ignition system in which any portion of the cap is clearly exposed and visible when the hammer of the weapon is cocked and ready to fire.
8. Has no scope, only open or peep sights. Fiber optic open sites are permitted.
9. Is free of any electronic devices.
10. Is at least forty-five (.45) caliber for deer, antelope, or mountain lion.
11. Is at least fifty (.50) caliber for elk, moose, bighorn sheep, mountain goat, or black bear.

 

[ppg1949]

Kudo’s to Idaho. At least Idaho hasn’t caved into to the bribes that are being thrown around to allow the Tradition’s Nitro Fire loading powder in a capsule from the breach like Indiana did in spite of much protesting. The damn thing has to have a BATF form 4473 filled out, which says in itself it is not a muzzleloader.
Most of the people I have known that shoot non traditional ml’s never switch to the traditional side of the hobby. They are in it to lengthen their hunting season only. Excuse the rant but I’m glad a few states are holding the line.

 

[chorizo]

We also have short range weapons areas. Archery, crossbows, shotguns and muzzleloaders qualify for those areas.

But to hunt in a muzzleloader only zone and season, we have to get a separate endorsement acknowledging the requirements and that you have had basic training in the use. Not overly oppressive, but not a free for all either as it makes clear that the non-traditional weapons that don't meet the quals are not allowed.

 

[t_carlyle]

Most of the people I have known that shoot non traditional ml’s never switch to the traditional side of the hobby. They are in it to lengthen their hunting season only.

I wholly agree, although I did start pseudo non-traditional (a stainless TC Grey Hawk), I made the move to traditional and very glad I did. Many friends I grew up with utilize the muzzleloading season here in MN as nothing more than an extension of firearms season as you say, and they have no real actual interest in muzzleloading itself.

 

[senseisugarbear]

I think that M/L shooting is something we do for ourselves, There are many ways to make meat. We use to call it BUCKSKINNING..A personal Challenge to ones self to learn to thrive using only the traditional ways handed down through the generations......Muzzel loading is a SMALL part of the overall lifestyle. Rondevous is akin to a Biker going to STURGIS. I'm not going to dog someone using a inline to stretch his time in Nature. BUT , I will take my pleasure in knowing that I can procure my Winters food supply with JUST what MOTHER EARTH makes available to me. It may not even involve a M/L...............Be Safe >>>>>>>>Wally

 

[Tumbledown]

Can we see a pic of the gun in question? It may not be a sidelock, but still traditional. There were some percussion guns with internal locks and centered hammers.

 

[Flintlock]

Non traditional would be like sleeping with a dude wearing a dress. Sure it might get the job done but do you really want to go that way.

 

[chorizo]

@JB67 "Can we see a pic of the gun in question?"

CVA Northwest Accura MR-X is the gun in question, if that assuages your doubts.......

I really don't think they made anything like them in the 1800's, but you tell me.....

 

[Spikebuck]

CVA Northwest Accura MR-X is the gun in question, if that assuages your doubts.......

I really don't think they made anything like them in the 1800's, but you tell me.....

Well, it wouldn't be my choice since I love to stare at the beautiful grain patterns in my stock while sitting stand. But, if it meets Idaho's requirements, and it's what someone wants, they can sure go for it.

IMO, Idaho's rules, as have been stated in this thread, contain the essence of what makes a traditional hunt a bit more challenging. No sealed firing mechanisms, no electronics, true front stuffer, no optics. The MR-X may not look traditional, but I don't see any glaring features that make it "better" or more reliable than any other capper either.

I see no advantage to it other than some people want a modern looking rifle and somehow think that the look somehow makes it better. Many have been so misinformed that they think a true traditional arm isn't cabable.

 

[ElkStalker]

Sidelocks are still the easiest way to be compliant with our muzzleloading laws, in my opinion. The regs were written this way with the intention of keeping the muzzleloader hunting seasons both challenging and traditional. Then companies stepped up with “loopholes” to make their inlines compliant. That’s ok, if that is what hunters want. I don’t want to be that guy that talks manure about 90% of the muzzleloader hunters out here in Idaho, who are doing the same thing I’m doing, which is essentially trying to put food on their tables and enjoy the outdoors, just because I’m one of the few who likes to use a traditional ML. These NW legal inlines sure can shoot with their fast twist rifling and easy to carry length and weight. I don’t own one, but I’ll be honest I have considered it when having issues getting a heavy connical to shoot in my mid-twist TC’s. When you can pick one of these up for under $350 and quickly find a connical that it likes, why would half these guys want to spend more on a sidelock, especially when the last sidelock left on the shelf for 1500 miles is a $1300 Pedersoli. That is quite an investment for the guy who is only wanting to spend more time in the field. I have noticed that at the range, these guys who are shooting inlines, now show far more interest in what I’m shooting than they ever would have. And once I let them fire off a shot or 2, they start talking about how much fun it would be to get a sidelock for the “old school cool” factor. And I know they went home with a smile on their face and started doing some homework on where to find one. I don’t think these inlines are the threat to our sport. If we traditional shooters can maintain a proper attitude that doesn’t repel interested folks, they can be a great doorway to get folks hooked, maybe the only doorway where some are concerned. Here in Idaho, I think it’s an easier transition because we don’t allow sabots, scopes or pelletized powder and somehow this avoids the marketing catastrophe that tells in-line shooters that their magic muzzleloader can reach out and take down an elk at 400 yards. With open sights, these guys quickly realize that 100yards is about as far as they care to shoot and still have confidence in their shot, and closer is better. Of course, I’ve also seen the guys who are thrilled to keep all 3 shots on a 16” piece of paper at 50 or 75yds, but I’m guessing they are as equally undisciplined with their 300win mags. This is an entirely different issue.

 

[chorizo]

@ElkStalker Well said, Sir

 

[ElkStalker]

Thanks @chorizo !
I was just watching a video of a flintlock elk hunt on YouTube that someone posted over on the hunting page. It’s a good watch. I was reading the comments and see this. This is exactly what I was talking about. People will believe anything they hear. Lol. Comparing a 40cal ML to a 300wm and shooting 600yds. Sure it’s possible to do, but not without a serious amount of homework behind the butt if a rifle and certainly not a smart plan when the target is an animal you have a tag for. Unfortunately, this is part of the reason inlines are so appealing to new shooters. They believe the hype.

 

[chorizo]

That video and its comments along with my buddy calling up to tell me about what he got his son is exactly what got me thinking.

My elk guns for the most part are 125 yard capable and I am confident in them. I have taken great pains to find ones that are accurate and reliable. No small feat with used guns.

But quite honestly, the MML that meets Idaho's requirements aren't much more than that either.

 

[Idaho Ron]

Idaho laws and seasons were the reason I built the Hot Rods.
We used to have some fantastic muledeer hunts. We also had some unbelievable elk hunts.
Those hunts have tanked, and twice the number of hunters going for the tags. I have never had anyone shoot one of my rifles ever want an inline.

 

[Nuthatch]

I have no issues with people using whatever weapon is capable to the task during the general season. But I like ID's laws for ML specific seasons. There's a natural contention between those who create laws designed to limit our abilities and those who create products to expand our abilities.

 

[bud in pa]

I have always thought that hunting required you to ambush game in it's home habitat by sneaking up on it or scouting it's travel ways and positioning yourself to ambush it. Shooting at 200 yards and further Is sniping. It takes a lot less woods smarts to shoot game from a long distance. The only game I ever sniped were woodchucks .

 

[Idaho Ron]

I have always thought that hunting required you to ambush game in it's home habitat by sneaking up on it or scouting it's travel ways and positioning yourself to ambush it. Shooting at 200 yards and further Is sniping. It takes a lot less woods smarts to shoot game from a long distance. The only game I ever sniped were woodchucks .

Let's look at what you said
About woods smarts, Okay. What if there isn't woods?
In this picture the only thing between me and the elk was 800 yards of ankle high grass. So where do you hide in ankle high grass?
Antelope hinting, elk hunting, and muledeer hunting can and often is done in areas that have no trees or even brush.

 

[chorizo]

Folks need to at least try to get west of the big muddy once, before they start commenting about hunting.

Shooting food plot/garden fed deer from 15 acre patches is a tad bit different than hunting big game on the high desert that spots you at 1000 yards and where the only cover is a sagebrush that is knee high or the steep sparsely wooded country of the burns where the closest shot is 300 yards at the bottom of draw 600 feet down.

Home habitat? I watched a doe and a crippled fawn traverse this basin that is 1200-1500 yards from the furthest point to over a little saddle that was to my right in about 1.5 hours. How is that for home habitat? The home habitat for a Western Mule deer is larger than some of your States back East:

https://phys.org/news/2022-12-immersive-story-life-world-longest.html
I have also seen a small herd of elk spooked run across this little basin (yes, little because the one behind me in the pic is about 1 mile ridge to ridge and the closest opposing side shot was 600 yards) in about 10 minutes from ridge to ridge. Home habitat? They kept going and the last I saw of them was crossing a ridge on the far side of the basin behind me that was about a 1000 ft climb and easily a mile away.

Just a tad different than hunting a little whitetail that is born, raised and lived its whole life in an area less than the picture below captures.



Check out this short video on deer migration....also the terrain from the air:

 

[bud in pa]

Let's look at what you said
About woods smarts, Okay. What if there isn't woods?
In this picture the only thing between me and the elk was 800 yards of ankle high grass. So where do you hide in ankle high grass?
Antelope hinting, elk hunting, and muledeer hunting can and often is done in areas that have no trees or even brush.

I said woods smart because living in the east I've only hunted woods. Woods smart can also apply to the open plains or the desert. It refers to one's ability to use their local terrain to their advantage.

 

[Idaho Ron]

I said woods smart because living in the east I've only hunted woods. Woods smart can also apply to the open plains or the desert. It refers to one's ability to use their local terrain to their advantage.

out west our tags are mostly draw. In some instances our hunts can honestly be once in a lifetime.
Some like I have drawn is maybe once in 10 years.
It is wise for a person to be prepared to shoot long range when venturing out west.
In some cases it is impossible to get closer. Being a good hunter means doing your best to close the distance. Most of my shooting in the desert is between 100 and 150 yards. I have had to stretch that a few times.
A guy that has spent his hunting career chasing whitetails in dense woods often feel very out of place trying to close the distance on a antelope in open country on a spot and stalk hunt.