Traditions Hawkins with a trigger problem

[John Thomas]

I have an older Traditions Hawkins with a trigger problem I just can't figure out.

From another post on this sight I was finally able to correct a problem I had with the set trigger not engageing. But that has had no effect on the front trigger. And it doesn't seem to matter if I use the set trigger or not.

When I use the set trigger, I can feel it catch the front trigger but it does not seem to move the slightes bit. Then, when I squeeze the front trigger, ther is a long section of travel where, half-way through, I can here a click. At the end of the travel,There is a point where the trigger stops and I must apply a good deal of pressure to finally trip the hammer.

I know this isn't the best description. But if anybody could help me figure out what's wrong and how to fix it I would be grateful. :idunno:

 

[necchi]

Your going to have to make some internal adjustments.
So get ready and take the trigger out of the stock.
Remove the trigger guard. Then there are one or two wood screws in the trigger plate underneath the trigger guard. The Traditions uses a through stock tang bolt/screw from the tang on top, to the front of the trigger plate, take that out and the trigger will come out.
You do that and I'll take a few pics and post again later.

 

[necchi]

Did ya git it out?

There is a flat leaf spring that drives the rear trigger into the sear arm when it's in "set mode". Make sure the big screw in back is tight. Next, in the trigger plate is a stop screw for that flat spring (shown by the arrow). If that screw is too far in it will remove the pressure of the flatspring against the rear trigger and render the set un-usable, loosen that screw.

When the set trigger is not being use or is disabled, and the front trigger alone is used, If you have to pull really heavy, there is a screw on the lock IN the tumbler that is adjusted for sear/tumbler engagement. The further down this screw is the lighter the trigger pull. If this screw is way out, it feels like 15-20 pounds of pull. Adjust that screw to your liking, too far down and your lock won't "****".

And I thank you for promting me to take these photo's. It's been a year since I've had this gun out of the cabnit and I found a bit of rust trying to get ahold :shocked2: I have been remise in my duties :redface:

 

[Bill Hall]

Necchi, I think if I had trouble with a carburator float pin on a 1942 I.H. wood splitter, you would have a photo up in less than an hour, telling me exactly how to fix it :rotf: . You're truly an asset to this forum, glad you're here :thumbsup:. Bill

 

[necchi]

TY Bill,
I put up pictures "cause I ain't a gud explainer"

 

[Zonie]

When you pull the rear trigger to set it and you hear the little "click", that is the front trigger latching the rear trigger in the set position.
The rear trigger should now be noticably back towards the rear of the trigger guard.
So far so good.

When you lightly pull the front trigger and you hear the "snap" sound that is the sound of the front trigger releasing the rear trigger.
At this point, your hammer should fall to the fired position.

Because the hammer didn't fall, pulling the front trigger much harder causes the front trigger to release the hammer just as though you had never set the rear trigger.

Obviously the rear set trigger isn't doing its job.

There are a couple of reasons that this can happen but before getting into those you need to have an idea of how one of these triggers works.

The rear set trigger is spring loaded and it has a blade sticking up out of the top of it. It is the job of this blade when the front trigger releases it, to hit the sear arm with a good "whack" to knock it upwards.

The lock's sear, the thing that holds the tumbler and hammer at the half **** or full ****, has an arm that sticks out away from the lock towards the left hand side. When this arm is pushed upward it causes the nose of the sear to disengage from the full **** (or the half ****) notch in the tumbler allowing the hammer to fall.

Now, to the possible problems with the rear set trigger:

Sometimes there is a small piece of wood in the way so rather than hitting the sear arm the rear triggers stored energy is spent making the blade hit the wood rather than the sear arm.

To check this, first remove the lock from the stock. At the rear there is a hole in the wood for the sear arm to stick into.
Look down this hole while you push the rear set trigger forward . You should see the set triggers blade move up so it covers at least 3/4 of the hole. If it does, then this is not the problem.

The next thing that can cause the set trigger not to work is that someone has been in there messing with the set triggers spring pressure.
Some folks attempting to reduce the amount of force needed to set the rear trigger will reduce the spring pressure using either the small headless screw that is located behind the rear trigger or by loosening the screw that holds the spring in place.

When trying to adjust this little screw (if your trigger has one like my Lyman GPR does) out.
By screwing this screw out you are increasing the spring pressure that is applied to the trigger blade.
Also, look at the large head screw at the rear of the trigger plate. If this screw has been unscrewed, screw it back in until it is tight.

Reassemble your rifle and try it. It should work properly.

If the set trigger still doesn't work like it should remove the trigger assembly again.

If your trigger assembly is like mine on my GPR it has a unique feature not found on most set triggers.
This feature is a 'hook' that is a part of the front trigger and it hooks behind a little catch that is a part of the rear trigger.

The hooks job is to prevent accidental release of the set rear trigger.
It is possible that this hook is catching or interfering with the ability of the rear trigger to fully release when the front trigger is pulled.
To check this, with the trigger assembly removed from the stock, set the rear trigger.
Keep your fingers away from the upper area of the trigger assembly and slowly pull the front trigger. You should see the hook raise clear of the rear triggers catch at the same time that the rear trigger snaps upward. If it doesn't you can grind off some of the bottom of this hook so that it doesn't interfere with the rear triggers blade during release.
You can remove up to 1/8 inch of the hook without causing other problems and your modified trigger will not be any more dangerous than 90 percent of the double set triggers sold today.

Let us know what the problem was and if you got if fixed.

 

[necchi]

See, If I could explain like that, I wouldn't need photos,, :haha:
Zonie, :bow: :thumbsup: has that gift.

 

[John Thomas]

Thanks for all the advice. Even though I haven't got my trigger fixed, I may have the problem figured out.

From tinkering around I discovered that there simply not enough spring pressure to move the set-trigger more than 1/16th of an inch after being tripped. Then, I noticed that right behind the screw holding the leaf spring is a small ridge that the rear of the spring rests on. This ridge is holding the entire spring up by about an eigth of an inch. I suspect that by fileing that ridge down flush with the trigger plate I'll have plenty of spring pressure to move that set trigger. If that doesn't work, I might have to reshape the leaf spring that pushes on the set trigger. And to be honest, I dont even know if I would be able to do such a job without destroying the entire peice. Especially sinc I have no place to work or any of the tools needed for such a job.

 

[Bill Hall]

I take it you don't have that little spring adjustment screw shown in Necchi's photo. Before I'd start filing on that ridge, I'd do like Zonie mentioned and check that big screw on the tail end of the spring. If it's too loose, it will cause the weak spring action you're describing. The only reason you'd need to file off that ridge is if the spring somehow got weaker, and I doubt that happened unless someone heated it up and removed it's temper. If the spring is somehow too weak, the only thing you should do is just replace it, as it will continue to give you problems. Again, I doubt this is the case.

Try tightening up that spring screw :thumbsup: . Bill

 

[necchi]

Ya, I've seen triggers with that little ridge or bump,
If you decide to take it down, do so a little at a time. It's easier to file more than to UN-file something. :wink:

 

[John Thomas]

It's probably agood thing I wanted to check my findings before doing anything I couldn't reverse.

A friend came by for a couple seconds and we talked about what was going on. He sugessted that I put some black on the trigger to see if it's even making contact. Well, on his advice I did just that. What I found is that the trigger comes nowhere close to hitting anything.

Now most would say to just inlet the trigger farther and normally I would agree. But this time I would have to refuse such sage advice. You see, the manufaturer of this particular rifle went a little wild with inletting and shaping of the stock in that particular area and am afraid that there is very little wood left to take and still be able to fire the gun without the stock breaking.

One other solution that comes to mind is to either braze more material onto the top of the trigger to make up the difference needed. Or to bend down the arm the trigger strikes to get the same effect. The first option I have no way of doing with what I have available to me. The second I could do, but it does have its risks.

Has anyone tried such a job before? If so, what were the results. In other words: HELP!

 

[Bill Hall]

John, Inletting the triggers deeper into the wood isn't going to solve this problem, or at least solve it correctly. I would re-read Zonie's post and do everything he mentioned, to the letter. It's a very step-by-step trouble shooting process, and covers most every cause of the problem you are expeiencing.

Check for wood obstructions per Zonie's instructions. If the rear trigger lever can be seen in that hole, you know that is ABLE to do so, and therefore, no obstruction is hindering its travel.

I would then remove the triggers and **** the set trigger and observe what's happening. The rear trigger lever should go down slightly and catch into a notch on the side of the front trigger, and then stay there. Now hold the triggers in one hand and extend your pointer finger from your other hand about 1/4" above the trigger levers. Now pull the front trigger and notice if the rear trigger lever jumps up and touches your finger, as it should (could even sting a little). If it doesn't hit your finger, the spring isn't doing its job, or it's stuck on that rear hook Zonie talked about.

Did you check to see if that spring holding screw is tight? If so, you could remove the spring and check for a broken tip, or other damage.

One more thing to consider is that someone could have filed down the top of the rear trigger lever, causing it to be too "short" to come into contact with the sear bar (the arm the trigger strikes) in the lock. Check to see if there is any evidence of modification there. If the lever has been cut down, that would be cause to add metal to it so that it once again contacted the sear bar.

Take your time, think this through, follow the instuctions given, and the answer will probably jump up and hit you in the face all of a sudden. It's really a simple system, just a sequence of events. Bill

 

[John Thomas]

Well, thanks for all the advice folks. But after all is said and done, I do not have the capability to fix this gun and cannot afford to nor wish to spend any more on it than I already have. I've already spent more on this gun to fix all the various problems than I origionally spent to purchase the whole gun.

No, I think this one will just end up goin to the dump. I'm so disgusted with it, I just might send everything else that I have for the gun and rondy's just might gi with it.

Thank again. I'm just sorry I wasted everyone's time.

 

[Bill Hall]

Well, I'm thinking the problem could be fixed with a little effort, but tinkering with these guns is not for everybody. Kinda like doing your own mechanic work on your car, some get into it, and some don't. No harm, no foul :thumbsup: .

I don't know if you're serious about throwing it in the dump, but I'm sure someone would glady take it off your hands and fix it. In fact, I know someone personally who could give that rifle to one of his daughters, hint hint.

Just don't throw it away, ok? Bill

 

[R.M.]

Yup, it could be fixed and given to a junior or a club for junior use. I'm sure there someone close to you that would take this on.

 

[John Thomas]

You're probably right. Guess anyone without a full shop and years experience with these guns should't even get involved with them.

 

[R.M.]

I'm not sure I understand what you're saying, but what I meant was, instead of throwing it away as you had mentioned, you could give it to someone who could get it shooting and pass it on to an under-privileged youngster like Smokin 50's club did.

 

[Zonie]

It doesn't take a full shop full of equipment to fix the problem. Just a screw driver should do the trick.

That said, I suppose some folks are a bit intimidated by mechanical things and that's OK. Everyone is different.

What seems unusual to me is that anyone would even consider throwing away a working gun.

Yup. I said "working gun".

Even without getting the set trigger to work, according to the original post in this topic the front trigger was working like it should. Pull it and the gun fires.
That sounds like a good starting place to learn about using muzzleloading rifles to me.

 

[John Thomas]

I guess you could call it a working gun. IF you didn't need it for hunting. IF your family didn't need the meat. Or IF you don't mind the excessively hard pull neede to trip the sear. Then, yes, you could call it a working gun. I guess I just have higher standards.

 

[R.M.]

I guess I just have higher standards.

Trouble being, a Traditions firearm is not a Cadillac, more like a Lada.