Triple 7

[mancill]

OK so I know that you measure black powder by volume. I am getting a new lyman great plains in a few days and I currently have triple 7 powder. Is say 70 gn volume of triple 7 the same as 70 gn by volume of 2f?

 

[Grenadier1758]

I would read the documentation on your can of 777. 777 is supposed to be more powerful that black powder for a given volume. To be extra cautious, I would back down the load by about 10%. Rounding up I would start at a measured 60 grains volume (that's a bit more than 10% less). Those loads should be safe in your GPR.

For full disclosure, I admit that I don't use anything but black powder.

 

[necchi]

Good advice above,
T7 is a little hotter,, more like a "sporting grade" powder, so back you can back off 10-15% and have the same results.
Any time you get a new gun or try a different powder a little "load development" or experimentation is due.

 

[Col. Batguano]

Same thing when going to a finer grade of powder, from FFg to FFFg. Back it off 10% or so. Now a days, in most rifle calibers, (say .62 and below) most folks are shooting FFFg.

 

[Zonie]

OK so I know that you measure black powder by volume. I am getting a new lyman great plains in a few days and I currently have triple 7 powder. Is say 70 gn volume of triple 7 the same as 70 gn by volume of 2f?

Yes and no.

First, when muzzleloaders talk about powder charges they are always talking about the volume of powder that is equal to the volume of black powder.

If we say, "I loaded 73 grains", they are talking about using a tube, hollowed out antler tip, shell casing or some other device that measures volume even if the actual powder was 777 or Pyrodex or one of the other synthetic muzzleloading powders.

I went thru this song and dance because if someone actually tries to measure the weight of the powder charge it can be quite different, depending on which powder they were using.

If they were measuring out 70 grains of black powder using their volume style powder measure, it would weigh 70 grains.

Using the same 70 grain volume measure but filling it with Pyrodex would give a different actual weight. Pyrodex and 777 and the other pseudo powders all actually weigh less per cc.

How much less?
I don't know about 777 but Pyrodex actually weighs about 2/3 as much as real black powder.
That can give about 30 percent more shots per pound.

The danger is that when it is measured by volume, Pyrodex produces just about the same power as an equal amount (by volume) of real black powder does. If Pyrodex is actually weighed, 70 grains (actual weight) of it will produce the same volume and energy as a 100 grain load of real black powder.

As the others have mentioned, 777 is more powerful than either real black powder or Pyrodex so be sure to measure it out using the black powder volume method.

While I'm on my soapbox, be aware that 777 is not only more powerful than real black powder but it also has a history of causing burned patches when it is used with a patched roundball.

Be sure to collect the patches that were shot and examine them.
If the area where the ball contacted the bore is charred, burned, ripped or blown away, that is why the shots are all over the target rather than in a nice tight group.

A well lubricated, tight fitting patch will sometimes be able to handle the extra heat and pressure of 777 but with a "hot" powder load, don't be surprised to find burned patches and poor accuracy.

 

[rodwha]

The other half of this story is that Triple 7 gives similar velocity, grain for grain (volume), as Swiss or Olde Eynsford, both being true black powders. So this 10-15% more than actual BP is only against many BP's not all.

 

[William O.]

Reduce your powder charge by 10% over what you'd use if it were real black powder.

 

[rodwha]

Is Swiss and Olde Eynsford not real BP then?

Have you read the reason why Hodgdon's states to reduce the load? Maybe you ought to.

"To duplicate a blackpowder load velocity using Triple Seven, you must decrease the powder charge by 15%."

This is obviously for powders other than Swiss or Olde E, which are real BP's and closer to what was used as evidence by Hazard's Pistol Powder.

 

[necchi]

Yes rod, we get it.
It's still wise to advocate for reduced loads when someone changes powder.
I'm sure if mancill was aware of sporting grade powders and their difference to commonly available powders he would have specified such and his experience in his original question

 

[William O.]

Is Swiss and Olde Eynsford not real BP then?

Have you read the reason why Hodgdon's states to reduce the load? Maybe you ought to.

"To duplicate a blackpowder load velocity using Triple Seven, you must decrease the powder charge by 15%."

This is obviously for powders other than Swiss or Olde E, which are real BP's and closer to what was used as evidence by Hazard's Pistol Powder.

The original post states that he is using 2f Triple 7. Based on my experience using 2f, Triple 7 I suggest reducing the load by 10%. For instance, a good starting load for a 50 caliber rifle using Goex is 50 grains which would be 45 grains of 2f Triple 7. That amount will give approximately the same velocity between the two powders. I do not recommend using 3f T-7 in rifles.

 

[Col. Batguano]

OK so here's an academic question;

Which will produce the most consistent velocities?

A charge that was measured by volume, or, a charge that was measured by weight. In a given volume, weights of the charge can vary. And, in a given weight, volumes can vary.

In this case I don't care about which one is higher or lower. Only the smallest standard deviation based upon the single variable identified.

 

[Billnpatti]

I went back and looked through one of my data books on experiments that I have done and found one that I did to determine which way of filling a measure was best. First I simply filled my measure full, scraped off the excess without disturbing the measure in any way. I found that over all of the measurements that I did, the actual weight averaged about 3% low from what the measure was set at. I then did another test in which I tapped the side of the measure until the powder quit settling and then scraped the excess off. In this case, the actual weight was about 0.5% higher than the setting on the measure. In both cases, the standard deviation was only about 0.3 grains. So, in either case, my measuring was very consistant. Enough so that any measurement error would not have a significant effect on the velocity. I did not measure the velocities from each powder measurement but I would expect them to not be effected by the slight measurement errors that I found.

If you would like to see the data, send me a PM and I will send it to you.

Bill

 

[mooman76]

It's usually not very practical to measure by weight at the range or in the field. Constancy is the key. Do everything as close to the same as you can.

 

[necchi]

In this case I don't care about which one is higher or lower. Only the smallest standard deviation based upon the single variable identified.

Very good question.
But the defining answer isn't just the powder in our game.
Each person loading, each load, brings to the mix his own physical loading regime,,
Bore condition from shot to shot,
Patch/lube variables,
Pressure brought to the final load by the loaders hand,,

Personally I have found T7 to be very consistent from can to can and year after year.
I will say that the last bit of each can (the finings) will not be the same,, but I've found that to be the case with all powders.

 

[Rat Trapper]

I have always had very good luck with Triple Seven powder. When I open a new can I often measure up bunch of loads for hunting and vacum pack them in speed loaders. Prepared loads sealed up like that seem to keep for years and if it is raining during your hunt you know your powder is dry.
I shoot a fair amount of Goex in some of my rifles, but when going out to hunt deer I use Triple Seven.

 

[rodwha]

Indeed. But he was given vague advice and what was actually posted isn't exactly true as Swiss and Olde Eynsford are both true black powders, and yet there's no reduction of Triple 7 to achieve the same velocity.