Trouble with sighting in Replica Arms 1841

[jode]

Hi all,
I took out my Grandpa's old Replica Arms 1841 .58 caliber rifle to the range today.
Anecdotally, all my uncles/grandpa have said they never could hit anything with this rifle, and now I see why.
It seems to shoot pretty good groups, but it was tough to get the thing shooting on the paper. After I figured out where it was shooting, I went to adjust the sights, but the rear sight is already adjusted just about as far in the direction that it needs to go as it can go. Take a look at the photos. You can kinda see that the rear sight is already pushed quite a bit over. I need to push it even further over. I'm shooting probably 6-12" to the left of the target at 50 yards.
Any suggestions on how to get that sight over where it belongs? Or even how it might have become so very far off?

 

[Leatherbark]

Hello Jode and welcome to the Muzzleloading Forum. The barrel may have been bored off a little so it looks like some gunsmithing is in order. To start it would help if you had a dovetailed front sight to adjust. I'm sure that rifle came with just a brass blade pressed/soldered into the barrel. The original rear fixed sight that has been replaced with that Marbles sight in the picture was really close to the eye to start with. Now its even closer to the eye. It would really help to move it farther down the barrel. (another dovetail)

Now if you don't want to replace or move the sights the only other option would be to file the face of the muzzle off on one side to cause the gases to move the ball the direction you want it to go (extreme). This might be your problem anyway (muzzle not square). Are you using round ball or minie ball?

Bob

 

[hawkeye2]

"seems to shoot pretty good groups"
"probably 6-12" to the left"

I'm guessing that you mean 6 1/2" rather than 6 to 12" since you mention good groups. You might be able to bend the barrel but that can be kind of hit or miss and the '41 barrel is quite a hunk of iron. The easiest solution would be take it to a smith and dovetail in a modern front sight that you could drift to suit.

 

[bpd303]

The first thing I would do is replace the Marbles sight with an original one.
http://www.ssfirearms.com/products.asp?cat=81&pg=4

 

[hawkeye2]

Those are nice sights and are suitable for a Mississippi rebored to .58. I have a long range sight on my Mississippi (along with other mods to make it period correct) and love it. At the point in the gun's history when it was bored out and any of those sights installed the original brass blade front sight would have been replaced too. The problem with these sights is that there is no provision for windage adjustment other than welding up the notch and cutting a new one.

 

[bob308]

if the gun is hitting left the rear sight was moved in the wrong direction. the rear sight is moved in the opposite direction you want the bullet to go.

the others are right the rear sight is too close the eye. a quick fix would be to turn it around. I have seen it done and it worked.

I would try these thins before hacking, filing or bending on a good rifle.

 

[nwtradegun]

rear site moved in direction you want o go. front site moved in opposite direction

 

[hawkeye2]

It looks to me like the rear sight has been moved to the right of center which would be correct.

Turn the rear sight around? Quick fix! Ida never thunk of it.

 

[bpd303]

When adjusting sights, remember this FORS Front Opposite Rear Same.

 

[hawkeye2]

"FORS"

Duhh!

 

[jode]

Wow, thanks for all the help here guys! Lots of responses and a lot of great information.

"seems to shoot pretty good groups"
"probably 6-12" to the left"

I'm guessing that you mean 6 1/2" rather than 6 to 12" since you mention good groups.

Actually, I say it seemed to shoot pretty good groups because I was eventually able to use Kentucky windage to get it on the paper to see the groups. However, I don't consider that sort of sighting to be very accurate, and I also was shooting seated with no bracing, so it's not like I was at a bench rest. In my mind, a 6" group with those limitations is a reasonable assumption that the groups aren't too bad. By the way, this was shooting minie balls with 60 grains of pyrodex. But yeah, this is all pretty imprecise at the moment - I was just trying to throw some lead out of it. That was a success. Next time, I'll try to get in at the range where I can actually lay it on the bench at a known yardage and fine tune in the aim. That should tell me the actual size of my groups.

bpd303 - those original sights look awesome. Of course, I'm not really that type of enthusiast. If I were to spend that kind of dough, it would probably be on a new rifle. I'm just trying to set some meat on the table. Drew out on a ML buck tag this year

On the direction to move the rear sight, I am confused by the responses. Let me see if I have this right: The gun shoots left of target, so I want the point of impact to "move right" so I move the rear sight right. Right?

What is the rationale behind moving the rear sight down along the barrel closer to the front sight? I would have thought the farther they are apart, the better the accuracy? And what does it hurt to have it close to the eye? And if I were to "turn it around", as suggested, how exactly is that done? Do you just pry up on the rivets to pull it up? Then hammer it back in?

Thanks again for all to take the time to help out. :bow:

 

[jode]

Here's the way I look at it (please let me know if I'm thinking wrong here)

In the image, imagine you were looking down the rifle barrel (as in the image) and using the tip of my index finger as the rear sight. You are aiming at the green bullseye. The red line is your "aim" (from the rear sight which is my finger, through the front sight, to the target. In that case, looking at the direction the barrel is pointed (represented by the blue line), you can clearly see that the bullet it going to be thrown to the right of the target.
Therefore, moving the rear sight to the right, will make the gun shoot more to the right. Right?

 

[bpd303]

Right if you want the group to move to the right you move the rear sight to the right or the front sight to the left. Seems backwards but it's not.

Another thing to check would be the crown at the muzzle, a damaged crown will throw the shots off.

 

[hawkeye2]

Given the conditions I guess a 6" group isn't too bad. The gun was probably made by Zoli and unless it has been abused they are capable of reasonably good accuracy. Rather than using Kentucky windage to hit a little piece of paper hang up something real large on the backstop and then post your target. That way you can concentrate on your sight picture and alignment and see what you get for a group. I used to buy rolls of shelf paper (can't find it anymore)and hang them 2 wide till I got on the target. You can cut that load back by 20 grains and still get the same degree of accuracy.

 

[robinsroost]

It can be confusing but ignore the front sight, for now, and concentrate on the rear sight. You stated that the gun is shooting left of where it was aimed. But, from your pictures, the rear sight has been moved way to the left, which will cause the gun to shoot to the left. Move the rear sight to the right, by drifting it in the dove tail slot. Use a material softer than steel, like brass, for your drift, so that you won't mark or mar the base of the sight or the dove tail. Use a scratch awl to scribe a line along the right side of the part of the sight that is in the dove tail. Drift the sight base until it just covers the line you have just scribed. Now, shoot for accuracy. Did this help, did it move your shots to the right? If necessary, do the same thing again, and continue to do so until the gun is shooting to the point of aim. Hope this helps. Keep yer powder dry.....Robin

 

[MacRob46]

Jode...

I think you have a bigger problem than the sights, one that was touched upon lightly in other posts. I think your barrel is bored off center or possibly bent. Being unable to get any hits on the paper at 50 yards is indicative of a problem with the bore. I once had a barrel on an original rolling block that would not print on the paper at 50 yards. I moved the sights to the point that they were almost out of the dovetail before I got it on the paper. A friend (I was a neophyte shooter at the time) suggested I look at the bore. Sure enough, it turned a little corner about mid-way down the barrel. When I looked at the muzzle I could plainly see that the bore was not in the center of the barrel. This was a .45-70 heavy barrel. In the case of your musket, the barrel is relatively thin-walled so I suspect the barrel is bent although it could be bored off center and bent! You can pull the barrel from the stock and check it with a straight edge to see if it is bent. Visual inspection of the muzzle and measurement of the thickness of the walls all around the muzzle will tell if it is bored off center. If it is bent then it can be straightened.

Hopefully I am wrong but it sure sounds like a barrel issue to me. Get rid of the Marble sight too.

 

[jode]

...from your pictures, the rear sight has been moved way to the left, which will cause the gun to shoot to the left.

I guess the pictures are misleading? From the point of looking down the barrel, the rear sight is moved all the way to the right.

 

[jode]

From the way the light reflects off the barrel, there is no obvious bend. Take a look at these pics and let me know if you think this looks funny. Could this inconsistency inside the barrel end cause it to throw the bullet funny?

 

[robinsroost]

I guess the pictures are misleading? From the point of looking down the barrel, the rear sight is moved all the way to the right.
[/quote]

Jode, I looked closer at your picture. They are not misleading, your rear sight is bent to the left. Replace the sight before you try anything else. KYPD......Robin

 

[bpd303]

It's hard to tell from the camera angle, but I agree with Deputy Dog, the sight does look angled to the left or the dove tail is cut at an angle. Drifting the sight out and checking the squareness of the dove tail will eliminate that as a problem. You may be able to clamp the front of the sight in a padded vise and tap the rear to the right.