TRS "Expedition" Rifle
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hawkeye1755
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Hope these pics will help.
:hatsoff:
:hatsoff:
Mike Brooks
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That looks like one of Don Stith's kits.
hawkeye1755
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Yip, were the only pics i found.Mike Brooks said:
Not good?I mean his kits.
:hatsoff:
paulvallandigham
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Are you serious? They had ONE air rifle. The rest were contract rifles from the Harper's Ferry Arsenal. For the past 200 years, we have been arguing what model gun produced at Harper's Ferry arsenal they actually took. Its now thought it could not have been the later model, because of when the arms were procured. The 1792 model is believed to be the gun that armed the expedition.
paulvallandigham
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Using Triple 7 and 209 primers. :rotf:
Nope Stump. They visited the arsenal before they left and took possession of a bunch of rifles. Controversy is that they took the new 1803 rifle (or at least a few of them) which were made but not issued yet. Other side of the coin is that they only carried the 1792 contract rifle and none of the 1803. There was only the one air rifle.
You can find a scary amount of information about it at this Link.
Twisted_1in66 :hatsoff:
You can find a scary amount of information about it at this Link.
Twisted_1in66 :hatsoff:
runningbadger
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Ya all should learn your history. :nono: Only one air rifle, which has now been found, along with a rifle that they are calling the 1800 harpers ferry. Looks similar to the 1803 not the 1792 contract rifle. New discoveries are a good thing.
Desert Rat
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Runningbadger, can you point me to the source documentation for the 1800 Harpers Ferry? I hadn't heard about that one. Having spent some time on the big muddy up in Montana the L&C expedition is kind of a personal curiosity thing.
Thanks
Thanks
Guest
RB,
Like Rat, I've never read that anywhere and would be interested to hear your source for it.
On a related note, there is a lot of confusion on the issue of what L&C carried so, Stumpy, you shouldn't feel bad for thinking what you thought. They are right that only Lewis carried an air gun amongst his other guns. The best source I've seen on the Harper's Ferry guns the expedition used is an article by Frank Tait that was in Man at Arms a few years ago. The full citation may be on Don Stith's web page. However, if I remember correctly Lewis only picked up 15 of these guns from HF. That means there was no SINGLE expedition rifle. Instead there were several, and in fact they weren't even all rifles. There's a note in the journals of Sharbano carrying and losing an 'elegant fowler'. Several of the men carried their own rifles and smoothbores on the trip. You could probably find anything from a 3rd model Bess to a NW gun to PA trade rifle or even a Virginia rifle among that motley corp.
I have not seen the Rifle Shoppe's gun. However, I will say that Don Stith's 1792/4 kit is well researched and accurate. He told me that he based it off several original pieces from museums and private collections. He even has Ed Rayle make a barrel for it with a period correct swamp pattern and bore. I doubt you'll find a much better product than that. I've heard rumors here and elsewhere about a different expedition rifle surfacing through TRS, but until I see it written up and well documented somewhere I'll consider it like every one of "Billy the Kid's personal guns".
Sean
Like Rat, I've never read that anywhere and would be interested to hear your source for it.
On a related note, there is a lot of confusion on the issue of what L&C carried so, Stumpy, you shouldn't feel bad for thinking what you thought. They are right that only Lewis carried an air gun amongst his other guns. The best source I've seen on the Harper's Ferry guns the expedition used is an article by Frank Tait that was in Man at Arms a few years ago. The full citation may be on Don Stith's web page. However, if I remember correctly Lewis only picked up 15 of these guns from HF. That means there was no SINGLE expedition rifle. Instead there were several, and in fact they weren't even all rifles. There's a note in the journals of Sharbano carrying and losing an 'elegant fowler'. Several of the men carried their own rifles and smoothbores on the trip. You could probably find anything from a 3rd model Bess to a NW gun to PA trade rifle or even a Virginia rifle among that motley corp.
I have not seen the Rifle Shoppe's gun. However, I will say that Don Stith's 1792/4 kit is well researched and accurate. He told me that he based it off several original pieces from museums and private collections. He even has Ed Rayle make a barrel for it with a period correct swamp pattern and bore. I doubt you'll find a much better product than that. I've heard rumors here and elsewhere about a different expedition rifle surfacing through TRS, but until I see it written up and well documented somewhere I'll consider it like every one of "Billy the Kid's personal guns".
Sean
hawkeye1755
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The following is the list of inventory acquired by Lewis at Harpers Ferry: 15 Rifles, 24 Pipe tomahawks, 36 Pipe tomahawks for "Indian Presents," 24 Large knives, 15 Powderhorns and pouches, 15 Pairs of bullet molds, 15 Wipers or gun worms, 15 Ball screws, 15 Gun slings, extra parts of locks and tools for repairing arms, 40 Fish giggs, a collapsible iron boat frame and 1 small grindstone.
:hatsoff:
:hatsoff:
At the recent Eastern Primitive Rondevous Cowan and Keller gave an excellent presentation of the L&C air rifle using one of their museum copies. After the approx. 1 1/2 hours presentation we were invited to take a shot with it. I was first in line and the rifle was awkward to shoulder as the round butt/air cylinder made it difficult to get down on the sights. I hit a 6' gong offhand at 50 yards with it with a 6:00 hold.
The rifle was approx. .45, 20 shots, seemed to be fairly light for a military rifle, had the air cylinder pumped to 800psi to begin. They used compressed air rather than the hand pump which would have taken 1500 pumps.
They said to duplicate the rifle would take about $60,000 for the rifle and $6,000 for the tools and accessories for it.
I declined to order one.
Very neat.
The rifle was approx. .45, 20 shots, seemed to be fairly light for a military rifle, had the air cylinder pumped to 800psi to begin. They used compressed air rather than the hand pump which would have taken 1500 pumps.
They said to duplicate the rifle would take about $60,000 for the rifle and $6,000 for the tools and accessories for it.
I declined to order one.
Very neat.
runningbadger
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ok. This is the paper that talks about both the air rifle and the 1800 harpers ferry. The discussion about the 1800 is quite a ways through the paper but it is all great reading. riflehttp://www.beemans.net/lewis-assault-rifle.htm
Hey Runningbadger,runningbadger said:
That's the same link I posted above. If you can go back into your post and edit it, remove the "rifle" that you have tagged onto the front of that link because it doesn't work with that hooked onto the http part. Or, you could just click on the link I posted in my message above :wink:
Twisted_1in66
:hatsoff:
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RB,
I'd have to see the paper they presented. Sounds like this was a conference presentation and not something put to press. No offense intended, but I personally wouldn't want to make the assumption that this was the rifle the Corps used based on a note on a web page dealing with another topic. If you can find a complete citation for their paper, I'd be interested in reading it. In the meantime, try checking with your local library to see if they can interlibrary loan the Tait article on the 1792/4 mentioned above for you. Its really a very well researched and well cited paper with pictures of several original pieces. Give it a read and see what you think. The citation is on Don Stith's web page:
[url] http://www.donstith.com/history.html[/url]
As for the rifle, it looks very much an 1803 to me, minus the brass band on the fore end and keyed forestock.
Respectfully,
Sean
I'd have to see the paper they presented. Sounds like this was a conference presentation and not something put to press. No offense intended, but I personally wouldn't want to make the assumption that this was the rifle the Corps used based on a note on a web page dealing with another topic. If you can find a complete citation for their paper, I'd be interested in reading it. In the meantime, try checking with your local library to see if they can interlibrary loan the Tait article on the 1792/4 mentioned above for you. Its really a very well researched and well cited paper with pictures of several original pieces. Give it a read and see what you think. The citation is on Don Stith's web page:
[url] http://www.donstith.com/history.html[/url]
As for the rifle, it looks very much an 1803 to me, minus the brass band on the fore end and keyed forestock.
Respectfully,
Sean
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Hi Sean,
Keller and Cowan published a paper in 2006 in the magazine (or journal) "We Proceeded On" published by the Lewis and Clark Trail Heritage Foundation. Google- "Stuart Wier" firearms Lewis and Clark - and you should come up with a note that lists the citation for that paper. I don't know how well it is peer-reviewed nor have I read it.
dave
Keller and Cowan published a paper in 2006 in the magazine (or journal) "We Proceeded On" published by the Lewis and Clark Trail Heritage Foundation. Google- "Stuart Wier" firearms Lewis and Clark - and you should come up with a note that lists the citation for that paper. I don't know how well it is peer-reviewed nor have I read it.
dave
Guest
Dave,
Gracias. I'll ILL request it. Note that the page you mention shows a 1792/4 contract rifle and lists that model as what they think went with the Expedition.
[url] http://home.earthlink.net/~swier/Lewis&Clark_Exp_Firearms.html[/url]
Sean
Gracias. I'll ILL request it. Note that the page you mention shows a 1792/4 contract rifle and lists that model as what they think went with the Expedition.
[url] http://home.earthlink.net/~swier/Lewis&Clark_Exp_Firearms.html[/url]
Sean
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