What would be wrong with using tru oil and mineral spirits mixed 50-50? I did one application mixed this way on the first coat after uaing aqua fortis on the stock, really like the way the stock looks after the first application. Will I be OK if I do a couple more coats mixed 50-50? thanks flinch
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Tru Oil?
- Thread starter chuck-ia
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Hi Flinch,
I only use a thinned mix of Tru Oil for my first coat, so it sinks into the wood as far as it will go. After that, I use thin coats of straight Tru Oil, because the earlier thinned mix pretty much seals the stock - though it does not fill in the grain/pores.
Bottom line is you can continue to use thinned coats for a second or even third coat (or more), but it won't fill in the grain/pores as well as straight Tru Oil. So it is completely up to you.
Gus
I only use a thinned mix of Tru Oil for my first coat, so it sinks into the wood as far as it will go. After that, I use thin coats of straight Tru Oil, because the earlier thinned mix pretty much seals the stock - though it does not fill in the grain/pores.
Bottom line is you can continue to use thinned coats for a second or even third coat (or more), but it won't fill in the grain/pores as well as straight Tru Oil. So it is completely up to you.
Gus
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Hi Flinch,
Tru-Oil is just linseed oil that is heat treated and mixed with some solvents to dry faster. You can thin it as much as you want. That just affects drying tim and how quickly the oil fills the grain as Gus mentioned.
dave
Tru-Oil is just linseed oil that is heat treated and mixed with some solvents to dry faster. You can thin it as much as you want. That just affects drying tim and how quickly the oil fills the grain as Gus mentioned.
dave
There are so many different finishes one can use, I have tried permalyn, linspeed and different finishes, I have had the best results using tru oil. I have used boiled linseed oil with fair results, just takes about a month to finish a stock, seems it never does dry completely. thanks, flinch
Are you really asking what would be wrong? Or are you seeking approval for what you have already done.flinch said:
Is cutting the Tru-Oil you have really worth the savings and wondering?
Yeah your gun wood will be just fine,, don't worry,, you can save the mix for your next project.
Or you can keep asking,, someone is bound to come up and tell ya beeswax and turpentine is a good mix,, and "olde timey".
Why did ya cut the Tru-Oil?
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Hi Necchi,
For the same damn reason I would thin polymerized Tung oil to produce a good sealer. Please don't comment on something you appear to know nothing about.
dave
For the same damn reason I would thin polymerized Tung oil to produce a good sealer. Please don't comment on something you appear to know nothing about.
dave
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Well!....If you look at the MSDS, It's already diluted.....It's up to 70% Stoddard solvent. So you're just diluting the linseed oil further...
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Hi CC,
When it comes to finishes and techniques there are a lot of folks on this forum who have plenty of advice but never post photos of their work. In my opinion, their advice and credibility is not worth much and I would advise readers to ignore them. Pay attention to those who post photos backing up their work and opinions. The others just make noise.
dave
When it comes to finishes and techniques there are a lot of folks on this forum who have plenty of advice but never post photos of their work. In my opinion, their advice and credibility is not worth much and I would advise readers to ignore them. Pay attention to those who post photos backing up their work and opinions. The others just make noise.
dave
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Dave Person said:
Hi Dave,
Having seen pictures of your work, I'd say that's good advice. :thumbsup:
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Hi CC,
I was not commenting on your post but Necchi's above, so I apologize if you thought I was referring to you in any way. My main beef is simply that the internet is a great vehicle to disperse good information but it also can easily spread junk (fake news!!). At least posted photos provide some measure of verification although they can also be manipulated. Unfortunately, there are lots of folks on this forum with plenty of commentary and advice who never post any photos of their work so we all have no way to know if they have reliable information to share or are just making noise. At best, it makes for a good laugh, at worst it steers someone the wrong way.
dave
I was not commenting on your post but Necchi's above, so I apologize if you thought I was referring to you in any way. My main beef is simply that the internet is a great vehicle to disperse good information but it also can easily spread junk (fake news!!). At least posted photos provide some measure of verification although they can also be manipulated. Unfortunately, there are lots of folks on this forum with plenty of commentary and advice who never post any photos of their work so we all have no way to know if they have reliable information to share or are just making noise. At best, it makes for a good laugh, at worst it steers someone the wrong way.
dave
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Dave, You have no need to apologize to me...I knew exactly the point you were making and I still agree with what you're saying.... :thumbsup: :hatsoff:
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Dave Person said:
Hi Dave,
Fully admit I'm out of my league here, not being a chemist by trade.
MSDS sheets for Tru Oil used to rather poorly mention that "polymerized oil" contained a type of resin that made part of it a varnish in the mix, though I don't remember exactly the way it used to be described. The type and amount of the varnish is proprietary to Birchwood Casey and that is why it was never very clear in MSDS sheets.
Sorry I probably botched the explanation, but I know Tru Oil seriously degrades the transfer of water vapor in and out of the finish and that means it can't be just linseed oil and driers.
Gus
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That's it, thank you.
Oh and as something further for this thread, I don't recommend folks buy the Birchwood Casey "Sealer" Oil, as one can thin down regular Tru Oil when/if one wishes to do that.
Gus
Oh and as something further for this thread, I don't recommend folks buy the Birchwood Casey "Sealer" Oil, as one can thin down regular Tru Oil when/if one wishes to do that.
Gus
thanks to their "proprietary ingredient" clause......SDS's are about as much good as bathroom tissue for researching actual ingredients.
unless you can get the mfgr. to tell you what they use and in what amount.
good luck with that.
I was taught (possibly incorrectly) that "wet" Tru-Oil goes deeper than "dry" Tru-Oil the first couple coats......after that it's counter-productive to thin it.
unless you can get the mfgr. to tell you what they use and in what amount.
good luck with that.
I was taught (possibly incorrectly) that "wet" Tru-Oil goes deeper than "dry" Tru-Oil the first couple coats......after that it's counter-productive to thin it.
Really? Do you mean commercially purchased products for gun finish made by professionals for decades are only good for gun finishing until the buyer changes the composition of the finish before he uses it?Dave Person said:
Then that same user has to ask if there's going to be a problem?
Gimmie a break,, If your going to bugger up a finish before you use it,, expect buggered finish.
Bottom line is just like I said,, save the mix and keep using it.
Your bound to find a better solution (obviously) then the pros that make the stuff.
Your gun will be fine,, you'll be happy just smearing the stuff on till your rifle is done.
Tell me though,, Why did you buy Tru-oil to use as a gun finish?
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Hi Gus,
Polymerized oil means it was heat treated to speed up the drying process. For example, raw tung oil takes months to dry almost if ever, but Sutherland-Welles polymerized tung oil dries to the touch usually in 4 hours and is completely dry in 24 depending on humidity and temp. Below is an excerpt from Robert Flexner's book on wood finishes:
"Polymerized Oil
Any curing or semi-curing oil can be heated in an oxygen-free environment (so the oil does not burn) to increase its gloss and hardness, and reduce its curing time......
Polymerized oil is sometimes used as a finish by itself. It cures very fast and very hard and resists water and water vapor penetration. Many gun owners like the results they get when they rub in this oil, usually sold by other names such as Tru-Oil, onto their gun stocks. Because the oil is hard when cured, it is possible to build a film from many thin coats.
There are two problems with using polymerized oil as a finish on large surfaces such as furniture: it is expensive and it cures too fast to be applied and wiped off unless it has been thinned a lot with mineral spirits."
The take home message is that polymerized oils can be used on small surfaces like gun stocks unthinned because you will be wiping off any excess very quickly. However, on a hot dry day I find polymerized oil dries too fast to hand rub in so I usually thin it with mineral spirits. Moreover, I thin my oil for the first coats, which takes longer to dry and has time to penetrate deeper. For the top coats, I usually use unthinned oil unless the weather causes it to dry too quickly. Another trick to slow down drying is to add raw oil. For example you could add a tiny bit of raw artist-grade linseed oil to Tru-oil or (as I do sometimes) raw tung oil to polymerized tung oil. The key is to put it on thin and let it dry completely (24 hours) between coats.
In the photo below are two original English fowlers on the right and two of my guns on the left that were finished using thinned and unthinned polymerized tung oil.
dave
Polymerized oil means it was heat treated to speed up the drying process. For example, raw tung oil takes months to dry almost if ever, but Sutherland-Welles polymerized tung oil dries to the touch usually in 4 hours and is completely dry in 24 depending on humidity and temp. Below is an excerpt from Robert Flexner's book on wood finishes:
"Polymerized Oil
Any curing or semi-curing oil can be heated in an oxygen-free environment (so the oil does not burn) to increase its gloss and hardness, and reduce its curing time......
Polymerized oil is sometimes used as a finish by itself. It cures very fast and very hard and resists water and water vapor penetration. Many gun owners like the results they get when they rub in this oil, usually sold by other names such as Tru-Oil, onto their gun stocks. Because the oil is hard when cured, it is possible to build a film from many thin coats.
There are two problems with using polymerized oil as a finish on large surfaces such as furniture: it is expensive and it cures too fast to be applied and wiped off unless it has been thinned a lot with mineral spirits."
The take home message is that polymerized oils can be used on small surfaces like gun stocks unthinned because you will be wiping off any excess very quickly. However, on a hot dry day I find polymerized oil dries too fast to hand rub in so I usually thin it with mineral spirits. Moreover, I thin my oil for the first coats, which takes longer to dry and has time to penetrate deeper. For the top coats, I usually use unthinned oil unless the weather causes it to dry too quickly. Another trick to slow down drying is to add raw oil. For example you could add a tiny bit of raw artist-grade linseed oil to Tru-oil or (as I do sometimes) raw tung oil to polymerized tung oil. The key is to put it on thin and let it dry completely (24 hours) between coats.
In the photo below are two original English fowlers on the right and two of my guns on the left that were finished using thinned and unthinned polymerized tung oil.
dave
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Hi Dave,
Thanks for the further explanation and especially the tips on using polymerized Tung Oil. Good Info!
One thing we learned using wood stocked NM rifles was how important it was for the wood finish to severely restrict the amount of water vapor it allowed in and out of the stocks. A standard raw linseed oil finish and modern boiled linseed oil found in hardware/paint stores, will barely wave at water vapor going in and out of a stock. That means the wood in the stock with those finishes will swell and shrink a great deal.
We used Tru Oil because we often built/rebuilt rifles in the Fall/Winter/Very Early Spring and then shipped them out to Okinawa, Hawaii, California and North Carolina for the Matches there in the Spring, where temperatures and humidity were often quite different.
The importance of this point comes in with ML guns especially in the fore ends of Long Barreled rifles and smoothbores, because of the way the wood can swell and shrink in different amounts of humidity and thus put different types of pressure on the barrels. Though it still acts this way with half stock guns, it doesn't affect the barrels as much and especially heavier rifle barrels, though.
Folks would show up at Friendship and other places where extreme humidity was present and not realize how much their stocks were swelling, compared to how they had been back home just a couple/few days before.
Now I realize some folks will "Pooh Pooh" the notion of wood swelling/shrinking in the forearms of long barreled guns and that often surprises me. However, most builders of long barreled guns KNOW to elongate the holes fore and aft in barrel lugs for barrel retaining pins and wedges in the forearms. They do that so as the wood in the forearms swell/shrink, the pins won't cause cracks in the wood and negative nodes of vibration in the barrel (though the latter, I think, is less well known). So the amount of wood swelling/shrinking in a long fore end is more important than some may think.
Gus
Thanks for the further explanation and especially the tips on using polymerized Tung Oil. Good Info!
One thing we learned using wood stocked NM rifles was how important it was for the wood finish to severely restrict the amount of water vapor it allowed in and out of the stocks. A standard raw linseed oil finish and modern boiled linseed oil found in hardware/paint stores, will barely wave at water vapor going in and out of a stock. That means the wood in the stock with those finishes will swell and shrink a great deal.
We used Tru Oil because we often built/rebuilt rifles in the Fall/Winter/Very Early Spring and then shipped them out to Okinawa, Hawaii, California and North Carolina for the Matches there in the Spring, where temperatures and humidity were often quite different.
The importance of this point comes in with ML guns especially in the fore ends of Long Barreled rifles and smoothbores, because of the way the wood can swell and shrink in different amounts of humidity and thus put different types of pressure on the barrels. Though it still acts this way with half stock guns, it doesn't affect the barrels as much and especially heavier rifle barrels, though.
Folks would show up at Friendship and other places where extreme humidity was present and not realize how much their stocks were swelling, compared to how they had been back home just a couple/few days before.
Now I realize some folks will "Pooh Pooh" the notion of wood swelling/shrinking in the forearms of long barreled guns and that often surprises me. However, most builders of long barreled guns KNOW to elongate the holes fore and aft in barrel lugs for barrel retaining pins and wedges in the forearms. They do that so as the wood in the forearms swell/shrink, the pins won't cause cracks in the wood and negative nodes of vibration in the barrel (though the latter, I think, is less well known). So the amount of wood swelling/shrinking in a long fore end is more important than some may think.
Gus
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DP- thanks for the post (and the stunning exemplars) ”¦ now I understand !!
(as an aside, I have used TrueOil for a number of non- gun finishes, though not for furniture, including small boxes and shaving brush handles.) Never had a problem with moisture, even with the shaving brushes.
Thanks again for the post!
Make Good Smoke!
(as an aside, I have used TrueOil for a number of non- gun finishes, though not for furniture, including small boxes and shaving brush handles.) Never had a problem with moisture, even with the shaving brushes.
Thanks again for the post!
Make Good Smoke!
