Trying to get ready for a goose...

[roundball]

I may have a chance to help out a farmer this fall/winter and punch a couple geese tags with a Flintlock at the same time...he has a small livestock pond that gets covered up with geese that time of year.

The little pond backs up to the edge of a woodlot and the geese walk around on both sides of the pond.....I think within gun range of the tree line...thinking of building a natural blind just inside the edge of the trees.

Biggest bore I have is only a .62cal GM Flint barrel and so far I've always avoided using any type of modern shot cup for squirrels, turkey, etc...but I have to use steel shot so I must use a steel shot cup to keep from damaging the bore.

The .20ga shot cup is going to limit the shot charge for something the size of a goose so right now I'm working on a couple of options:

1) Get into that blind and shoot one in the head like I was turkey hunting;

2) Roll a Mylar wrap into a cylinder and slide in down into the shot cup to effectively make the shot cup longer, trim to length, etc...to be able to use a slightly larger shot charge for some wing shots;

Stuff is on the way from Ballistics Products...just no end to the stuff you can experiment with using a smoothbore...
:thumbsup:

 

[hawk]

I bought some plastic shot cups from cabalas the ones in the muzzleloading kit ,cups, wads,cards...
they were for 12 ga but they reaally hold the pattern tight.I used steel shot last year and had to hold my shots to 20 yards for clean harvest.
the pond i hunt has pines at the end of it so i just tucked up under them and the geese would pass at 15-20 yards.... we had our limit in three hours

 

[biliff]

Best thing I've found for getting set up close to geese on a pond is camo netting. Lay down in a comfortable spot (helps if you bring along a pad to lay on), pull the camo up over you and wait for 'em to fly over. You can get some really up close and personal shots at overhead birds that way.

 

[Joel/Calgary]

Hi, RB

Dunno if you can justify the expense, but have you considered getting a kilo of #4 or #5 NiceShot? $60 + shipping is comparable to the other tungsten-based shot, and you won't need the shotcup unless you want to use one to tighten the pattern. A conventional 1oz-1.25oz load should do fine. You can do all the load development and practice with the same size of magnum lead, then switch to the NiceShot and fire for effect.

If you haven't read it yet, go to http://www.ecotungsten.com/shots.html then click on the "reloading forum", which is actually just a short blog, then click on the "comments" at the bottom of that page. #5s are reported to work well on smaller geese if you use a 10z load, and 1.25oz of hard lead #4s was the classic load for late muzzleloader & early cartridge market hunters.

We still have enough bismuth #4s to hold us so I haven't tried this yet, but it looks good.

Joel

 

[AJFedak]

For that "in-your-face" shot you could build a ground blind with materials from the woods, or wear your camo, lay on the ground and cover with natural grasses from the area. Just remember lay still, motion will flare the geese faster than if they see you. Besides, your only going to get 1 shot (2 if you have a double).

Depending on the amount of your waterfowl hunting, you might want to consider buying a box of 3" 20 ga waterfowl loads. Slit them open and use the internal components (wad, buffer, shot).

They can be a little pricey but, since I've been using a muzzle loader for waterfowl for about 20+ years I have found that my harvest to shot ratio is much higher than most modern gunners.

When I went to Katy, Texas for a sandhill crane hunt I bought a box of 3½" BBB steel for my 10 ga. That provided 25 sets of components. I did manage 3 sandhill cranes and I still have some left if I go back this year.

 

[44-henry]

I still see boxes of Bismuth shotshells around periodically, you might want to consider buying a few of these and harvesting the shot. You can practice with lead and switch to Bismuth when your hunting.

 

[BrownBear]

I'd sure build at least one small natural looking blind long before you hunt, as in a month or so. Do it now so vegetation can grow out of it and the birds accept it as part of the landscape. More than one blind would be better if the farmer would allow it so you can keep the geese guessing. Low is good and camo netting is good, but only if vegetation is used to partly cover the netting and further break its outline. Anything new that appears overnight will alert them.

A further bit of strategy is to wait till all the geese leave in the morning, then get into the blind and wait for them to return. If you spook them, back off for a few days to let the place settle down or they'll quit using it. That would make the farmer happy, but wouldn't put any breast loins on your barbecue grill. Depending on the size of the pond I've also had very good luck putting out a couple of decoys, but no more. First time or two they'll approach the decoys directly, so set them off to the side of your blind so the birds aren't flying right at you when they come in. Later on, they'll be suspicious of decoys, so put them on the opposite side of the pond so that when the geese land across the pond out of suspicion they'll actually be landing close to you.

I used to do a whole lot of goose hunting with a ML in lead shot days. Inside 30 yards it was a stone killer, but I never tried further. Mine was a 12, but I'd have no problems with a 20 and steel shot, even with the reduced charge due to a cup. Just limit the range using cover and strategy, then pick your shots. Head/neck shots on standing birds would be dandy, but I wouldn't be too affeered of wing shots- Just aim for the underside of the wing joint where it joins the body and time your shots for a raised wing. Dead bird on the ground.

 

[Britsmoothy]

Good luck Sir, I'm hoping for my first too this season :hatsoff:

Britsmoothy.

 

[roundball]

I've drooled over ecotungsten so much this year my keyboard has shorted out...$62 + shipping for 2 pounds is a little steep.

So I decided to try steel & steel shot cups for a couple reasons...much more shot at much less cost:
10 lbs for $18 & 200 shot cups for $12 = 100 shots for $30 vs. 20 shots for $62 using ecotungsten...a 10:1 ratio.

I'll have steel #4's & #2's to test, plus having shot cups on hand I'll have the flexibility to even experiment with bismuth, hevishot, etc.

The read on ecotungsten is outstanding...sounds almost too good to be true...but at more than $2 per ounce delivered, thats awfully steep for my means to experiment with...maybe the price will ease up some in the future if more manufacturers get on the bandwagon...here's hoping :grin:

 

[Joel/Calgary]

I've drooled over ecotungsten so much this year my keyboard has shorted out...$62 + shipping for 2 pounds is a little steep.
...
The read on ecotungsten is outstanding...sounds almost too good to be true...but at more than $2 per ounce delivered, thats awfully steep for my means to experiment with...maybe the price will ease up some in the future if more manufacturers get on the bandwagon...here's hoping :grin:

To be picky, it's actually for 35.28oz, but yeah, the cost is a definite URK!!! But its about the same with Hevishot, bismuth (if you can find it), and most of the other exotics. At least with this, you can use magnum lead for load development with the same charge volume & shot size. Due the the density difference, with the bismuth #4s, I used the same *weight* of hard lead #5s for development, with a grain of puffed rice for a filler in plastic or home-made card-stock shot cups. (I have rough bores in my 16ga and almost never shoot naked shot.) At least with NiceShot and bismuth, you don't need special shotcups, if you want to use shot protectors at all. BTW, a local in the business is still negotiating for the rights to start making Bi/Sn shot. He says #5s and smaller are easy enough to make with a Littleton-type dripper, but #4s are the largest to successfully make by dripping and very temperamental to get right. Larger shot needs a different and more expensive technology. It'll be interesting to see what the cost comes out as if he gets the rights. I hear there are others negotiating for the rights, as well.

So I decided to try steel & steel shot cups for a couple reasons...much more shot at much less cost:
10 lbs for $18 & 200 shot cups for $12 = 100 shots for $30 vs. 20 shots for $62 using ecotungsten...a 10:1 ratio.

I'll have steel #4's & #2's to test, plus having shot cups on hand I'll have the flexibility to even experiment with bismuth, hevishot, etc.

I'm comfortable with steel shot for ducks at ML velocities, but I'm leery of it for geese in anything smaller than a 12ga, partly because of the very limited payloads of the steel-capable shotcups combined with the large shot required for penetration. I wouldn't be surprised if you did not get adequate penetration for body shots even with #2s, except at rather close ranges. Of course, I could be wrong - most of this is from reading, and there is not a lot out there dealing with ML velocities and ranges.

I still have some more testing to do, but it looks like 1.1/4oz of Fe #3s over 3.1/2 or 3.3/4dr FFg should work in my 16 for ducks, if I can get one of my home-rolled shotcups to work (likely need a mylar wrap). If I have to use 1oz in the B-P MultiMetal wads, I may have to go down to #4s for pattern density, but I think the 3s may be better for mallards (see disclaimer above). I'm also still working on a paper-cartridge (for speed of reload) swatter load of 1oz Fe #5 or #7 in a 20ga shotcup over 3 or 3.1/4dr.

Plus I want to try Runnball's cotton-tail shot concentrator with these, too.

I'd think that an ounce of Fe #4, or maybe even #5, should work for head-shooting geese if you can get a tight-enough pattern.

Good luck, and please keep us posted on what you find.

Joel

 

[Britsmoothy]

Is it not correct that pellet count is higher with the steel? Maybe this will help. I have allways thought that steel does hold good tight patterns, has anyone here found this?

Britsmoothy.

 

[roundball]

"...At least with NiceShot and bismuth, you don't need special shotcups..."

Agree about the ecotungsten but from what I've read bismuth requires the same protective shot cup as steel :hmm:

"...if I can get one of my home-rolled shotcups to work (likely need a mylar wrap)..."

I have a pack of the 4 different sizes/thicknesses of Mylar wraps coming with the steel shot & shot cups to experiment with slightly larger shot charges than the .20ga shot cup holds...thinking of rolling a Mylar wrap into a cylinder then sliding it down into the cup...with the excess sticking up higher than the cup.

Pour in the desired amount of shot, mark the top level of the shot on the Mylar and trim off the excess material...then use that Mylar wrap as a template to cut some more.

Just had a chat with my farmer friend, gave him a $50 gift certificate to a seafood resturant I know he likes...confirmed its OK for me to go after the geese on the livestock pond...our early goose season opens Sept 1st through the 30th, limit is 8 per day.

Hope this all comes together :wink:

 

[roundball]

Is it not correct that pellet count is higher with the steel?

Actually, because steel is so much lighter than lead, the rule of thumb is to drop down 2 sizes to get the same weight so you'll carry the distance and get similar penetration.

Example, if you were going to use #6 lead, you'd want to drop down to #4 steel...since the $4's are physically large the pellet count would be substantially lower.

 

[BrownBear]

Long as you have the chronograph, I'd sure be watching velocities in your experiments. As I noted before, more is better when it comes to killing power with steel.

I keep thinking back to the surprisingly low velocities you are getting with rubber balls over full powder charges in your rifle. I'm kinda wondering if heavier payloads in a smoothbore are going to result in higher velocities, compared to lighter payloads over the same powder charge.

Along the same lines, I kinda wonder if one of the important differences between your "cup" materials might be resistance. I.e., if two give similar bore protection and patterns, will the one that has more resistance to movement result in higher velocities.

Sorry to harp on the velocity side, but in my experience using conventional guns it's a huge issue with steel shot. I think comparison with ML's is valid because once the pellets leave the bore, they aren't going to care whether they were launched from a Remchester plastic shell or smoke belching ML.

 

[roundball]

Long as you have the chronograph, I'd sure be watching velocities in your experiments.
As I noted before, more is better when it comes to killing power with steel.

No sweat...I've never been one to live my life with milk toast loads :grin:

 

[Joel/Calgary]

"...At least with NiceShot and bismuth, you don't need special shotcups..."

Agree about the ecotungsten but from what I've read bismuth requires the same protective shot cup as steel :hmm:

Negative - the early Bi/Sn shot were rather brittle but not too hard for traditional loading. The brittleness diminished when they increased the tin from 3% to 5%. IIRC, there are conventional fiber-wad loadings in the UK for use in areas banning plastic left on the ground. And Hornhead's using them unprotected with no sign of scoring.

There is an informative article from Oz about using and making Bi/Sn shot: “Make Your Own Non-Toxic Shot” by Vic Pedersen and Tony Orr, published in “Guns and Game” Magazine, Issue 7, July-Sept 1995, Safari Publishing Co Pty Ltd, Australia. In it, they go into the properties and compare them to lead shot. The Bi/Sn are soft enough to deform on firing, but less than WW Super-X shot (Luballoy??) used for comparison. I just found it's still on the web at http://www.hotkey.net.au/~orrs/BismuthArticle/index.htm
BTW, note that the shot sizes referred to are UK sizes, which are 1 size smaller than US ones in UK#B - #7, e.g. UK#1 = US#2.

"...if I can get one of my home-rolled shotcups to work (likely need a mylar wrap)..."

I have a pack of the 4 different sizes/thicknesses of Mylar wraps coming with the steel shot & shot cups to experiment with slightly larger shot charges than the .20ga shot cup holds...thinking of rolling a Mylar wrap into a cylinder then sliding it down into the cup...with the excess sticking up higher than the cup.

Pour in the desired amount of shot, mark the top level of the shot on the Mylar and trim off the excess material...then use that Mylar wrap as a template to cut some more.

I'd worry that the unsupported front of the mylar might split rather than hold or stretch. I'd recommend a first couple of shots with hard lead shot (shotcups shortened accordingly) somewhere where you can recover the fired wads and shot protectors for examination.

I'm trying home-rolled shotcups using clay-finished card stock (phone-book covers for the moment; laser-printer photo paper if I have to go commercial). Two layers with an odd number of petals (so they overlap with no coinciding slits) looked promising, but I found some pinholes toward the base of a couple of recovered ones. I'm going to try putting the mylar either inside the shotcup or between the layers. If both open reliably, the between version should be better for ease of loading.

Just had a chat with my farmer friend, gave him a $50 gift certificate to a seafood resturant I know he likes...confirmed its OK for me to go after the geese on the livestock pond...our early goose season opens Sept 1st through the 30th, limit is 8 per day.

Hope this all comes together :wink:

KEWL! Good luck, and please keep us informed. :thumbsup:

Joel

 

[Joel/Calgary]

I just found an article that gives the Brinnell hardness of various shot:
lead (presumably magnum) - 13
bismuth - 18 (the same as NiceShot, IIRC)
steel - 136
(shotgun barrel steel - 190-200)
Hevi-Shot - 266
Tungsten-Iron - 270

Joel

 

[The Baron]

I hunt geese... a lot, to say the least. Foolin' geese is my first love. We're usually moppin' up limits with the "modern" guns, but I take the flinter out a couple times a year. Blackpowder waterfowling is a blast - you're gonna love it!

I have field hunted geese with my 1830's vintage 11ga. percussion fowler using 80gr. FFg, overpowder card, then a heavy shot cup and about 1 1/8oz. Kent Tungsten Matrix #3's (stolen from some of that ammo I had). It was surprisingly effective, although I only hunted with that gun the one time because the stock was starting to split badly at the tang.

Since I got my 20ga. flinter,I have hunted geese
several times. I shoot 80gr. 3F, overshot card, 1 lubed wad, then 1 1/8oz. Bismuth #4 (no shot cup). Very effective to about 25 yards (I've never shot one further than that, most inside 20 yards).

Although I have not shot steel in my muzzleloaders, that has only been for fear of damaging the bore. Steel shot is much more effective than most give it credit for. The only "trick" is to limit your range and centre your game in the pattern (both of which seem to be daunting tasks for many waterfowlers). That being said, I would consider the premium non-toxic shot. Sure, $3 a shot is very steep, but how many shots does a great flintlock goose hunt consist of - 6 or 8, at best? IMHO, an extra $25 is not too much to pay to be more effective on a hunt, consdidering all the time and other expenses that go into each outing. I'm definitely not saying you won't kill geese with steel, but I am just too nervous to shoot the stuff in my nice smoothie.

For your pond hunt, you'll have to decide what kind of hunt suits your personal taste. You would very likely have success in building a blind and shooting them on the ground. If you have not shot many (or any?) geese, then I say "go for it" and have fun. :thumbsup: But a flintlock fowler is not the handicap that the non-believers might think, so if you want some fine sport, setup a few decoys on the edge and/or in the pond. Remember geese always land into the wind. If the geese are in a regular pattern of landing in the pond each morning, you probably won't need to do any calling. The easiest shot is at their underbellies as they float overtop of you, or as they are backpeddling to land in front of you.

I wish I lived closer, because I'd offer to put my experience and equipment to use in seeing another traditionalist "smoke" some geese! :hatsoff:

 

[roundball]

Thanks for sharing the good info...you're the second individual who says bismuth can be shot in a bare bore...I must have been mistaken thinking I had read an article from some manufacturer or supplier that said it required a protective cup. So if I stumble across any left over bismuth somewhere I might grab for the future.

Right now, season opens Sept 1st, the steel shot & cups arrived today so I have to get the .20ga pattern tested...just as a quick test tonight I had a premeasured vial of 1+1/8oz #8s handy and was surprised to find that the .20ga steel shot cup held it all with a little freeboard left over but not enough for another 1/8oz...if I can find some bismuth I could build the load in the bore and be done with it...use the steel for squirrels
:grin:

 

[BrownBear]

One of the places I pheasant hunt has a brushy creek bottom running through it. Longtails love it, but so do ducks. For years I've stoked my 20 gauge (modern) with 1 1/4 oz of #4 or #5 bismuth at a nominal 1150 fps to be able to take both.

A few years back a pair of large Canadas hopped up about ten yards in front of me. The first one dropped cold dead at about 15 yards and the second dropped at a little over 20 yards. I figured on saving the second shot in case the first didn't compleat the job, but the bird folded so well I went ahead and swung on the second. Didn't need a third shot by any means.

I bet if you can get some #4's in bismuth and develop the right load you'll be eating goose.