Trying to make a decision

[Snake Pleskin]

I have to agree with all of the comments below. If the bore is good and everything else is tight and working properly, go for it. Quality of the flint, a good frizzen, and proper adjustment, reliable shooter.

Well, I am about to find out one way or the other. I have a Gemmer Clements Investarms GPR Flinter Kit , from Muzzle Loader .com, on the way! If it is a "problem" I will be the first to let everyone know, because I will need help tuning it.

 

[user 53891]

Well, I am about to find out one way or the other. I have a Gemmer Clements Investarms GPR Flinter Kit , from Muzzle Loader .com, on the way! If it is a "problem" I will be the first to let everyone know, because I will need help tuning it.

I believe once you have it built, you will never want to get rid of it. Congrats and have fun!!

 

[Snake Pleskin]

I believe once you have it built, you will never want to get rid of it. Congrats and have fun!!

Thanks , I have a GPR i built (capper) and I love it. It has never failed and shoots as well as other custom rifles I have. Never heard anyone complain about the barrel on one! I know Flinters are more touchy, so, I will take my time with the build and look at the lock closely to see if there are any issues etc. before I install it. They are a coil spring lock, little to go wrong, other than a poor frizzen hardening or the frizzen does not mate well with the pan or hammer is out of alignment? I have not heard of or seen too many touch holes drilled wrong because they are all done on CNC machines and programmed to be in the correct position etc. Thanks for your feedback. I need all the encouragement I can get! It has been 15 years since I built the last one!

 

[M. De Land]

My 1st flintlock was a musket, I built a Brown Bess kit. That gun has taught pretty much every thing that I needed to know about how to operate and shoot a flintlock. There is a skill in being happily proficient with a flintlock, and it starts with a good quality product.

View attachment 157287
On my kitgun, there were issues. The fit between the frizzen and the pan was pretty bad, and the gun would not spark. I sent the lock back to Dixie GunWorks and when it came back…it was perfect. Today, I can make those repairs myself, back then I had no clue and had to rely on the skill and knowledge of others.

View attachment 157294
After several years of shooting my Bess, I bought my next flintlock. This was a semi-custom gun .45 calibre TVM Southern Mississippi PoorBoy (Top Rifle).

What I’m trying to say is…flintlocks are not like percussion guns. There is a higher level of quality needed to produce a good solid quality flintlock. You need a well built quality lock, and the flash hole needs to be properly located. That almost never happens consistently with a commercially manufactured gun. Until you have a good background knowledge, I’d advise you to buy the best quality you can afford for your first (couple of) gun(s).

Having a flintlock that doesn’t function properly just sucks and is no fun. It can ruin your experience and your enjoyment.

I think all the replies are good but a lot depends on the attitude and build skills of the buyer. If one is good with tinkering abilities and has some knowledge of the subject than a good serviceable gun can almost always be made out of many of these less quality arms.
When one considers the probable quality of steel and component availability of golden age guns then even our less desirable arms would most likely be superior but in the hands of a skilled builder those guns of yesteryear where made to superb standards, mostly with file and chisel .
I once picked up a Moruku flint pistol for 20.00 bucks that had a cracked stock, no front sight, low quality lock, cheap paddle trigger and of all things an unlined vent that tapered forward at an angle to the bore. Truth is it was a piece of poor quality but with some elbow grease, stock repair , a new front sight, forged out trigger and a brown job the dang little gun will shoot with my match pistols and is very reliable.
Interestingly, as I have gotten older and learned more from experience I've found that many a bore I previously thought on serviceable from some pitting can be made to shoot as good as they ever did with a good lap job and re-crowning. Pits only destroy accuracy if they hook lead , tear patches or are in the crown. True, pitted bores usually need to be cleaned more often but they can be accurate as when new if kept clean.
All a straight and level bore need do is spin the ball or bullet at the appropriate RPM for its length, without deforming it in any fashion and it will shoot accurately.

 

[Snake Pleskin]

I think all the replies are good but a lot depends on the attitude and build skills of the buyer. If one is good with tinkering abilities and has some knowledge of the subject than a good serviceable gun can almost always be made out of many of these less quality arms.
When one considers the probable quality of steel and component availability of golden age guns then even our less desirable arms would most likely be superior but in the hands of a skilled builder those guns of yesteryear where made to superb standards, mostly with file and chisel .
I once picked up a Moruku flint pistol for 20.00 bucks that had a cracked stock, no front sight, low quality lock, cheap paddle trigger and of all things an unlined vent that tapered forward at an angle to the bore. Truth is it was a piece of poor quality but with some elbow grease, stock repair , a new front sight, forged out trigger and a brown job the dang little gun will shoot with my match pistols and is very reliable.
Interestingly, as I have gotten older and learned more from experience I've found that many a bore I previously thought on serviceable from some pitting can be made to shoot as good as they ever did with a good lap job and re-crowning.
All a straight and level bore need do is spin the ball or bullet at the appropriate RPM for its length, without deforming it in any fashion and it will shoot accurately.

I believe that not every firearm made thorough out history was a "work of art" or done by a master gunsmith. People lived every where and a trained gunsmith was not always close by. They did what they could on their own and learned by doing(IMHO)There is a reason we have "barn guns" and "poor boys". People needed something that worked, not something to admire or brag about. I think firearms were lapped when needed, rebored, made smooth, converted etc, what ever was needed to make a working firearm. These were necessary 'tools" to many people and did not hold any special meaning to them. It was just a tool. (IMHO)

 

[M. De Land]

I believe that not every firearm made thorough out history was a "work of art" or done by a master gunsmith. People lived every where and a trained gunsmith was not always close by. They did what they could on their own and learned by doing(IMHO)There is a reason we have "barn guns" and "poor boys". People needed something that worked, not something to admire or brag about. I think firearms were lapped when needed, rebored, made smooth, converted etc, what ever was needed to make a working firearm. These were necessary 'tools" to many people and did not hold any special meaning to them. It was just a tool. (IMHO)

True., they were as varied as the personalities and prosperity of their owners.

 

[M. De Land]

Hey all I posted on the forum about a week ago about trying to find a nice rifle in .50 caliber and I want a flintlock. That being said a local shop has a Thompson Center Pennsylvania Hunter Flintlock .50 caliber. The Pennsylvania hunter is $475 which is in my budget but the shop owner said that the Thompson Center Flintlocks need work to be good as he says they are unreliable. He also has a Dixie Tennesee Rifle and showed me how bad it sparks. (He wasnt plannin on sellin it so he got it dirty to show me what he meant). He told me to save some more and buy a contemporary rifle and it will suit my needs. I really dont want to buy multiple rifles as I dont see the need to have rifles lying around collecting dust. That being said should I go for this Pennsylvania Hunter (It is in good condition by the way) or should I save up some more for a contemporary built rifle of higher quality ?

One of the easiest ways in my opinion to improve flint gun reliability is to learn how to pressure flake a good strike edge on ones flnts . Most tools made for this are very tough/rough on flints and waste much of they're life.

 

[Snake Pleskin]

One of the easiest ways in my opinion to improve flint gun reliability is to learn how to pressure flake a good strike edge on ones flnts . Most tools made for this are very tough/rough on flints and waste much of they're life.

I am open to suggestions and examples of a good tool & technique! Pictures?

 

[M. De Land]

I am open to suggestions and examples of a good tool & technique! Pictures?

Bring up any good puter site of flint knapping and pressure flaking. These will explain and show examples better than I can. The same principles learned in point making apply to gun flint making. Gun flints are way easier to make than is a good arrow point.

 

[OldSmoky1967]

My 1st flintlock was a musket, I built a Brown Bess kit. That gun has taught pretty much every thing that I needed to know about how to operate and shoot a flintlock. There is a skill in being happily proficient with a flintlock, and it starts with a good quality product.

View attachment 157287
On my kitgun, there were issues. The fit between the frizzen and the pan was pretty bad, and the gun would not spark. I sent the lock back to Dixie GunWorks and when it came back…it was perfect. Today, I can make those repairs myself, back then I had no clue and had to rely on the skill and knowledge of others.

View attachment 157294
After several years of shooting my Bess, I bought my next flintlock. This was a semi-custom gun .45 calibre TVM Southern Mississippi PoorBoy (Top Rifle).

What I’m trying to say is…flintlocks are not like percussion guns. There is a higher level of quality needed to produce a good solid quality flintlock. You need a well built quality lock, and the flash hole needs to be properly located. That almost never happens consistently with a commercially manufactured gun. Until you have a good background knowledge, I’d advise you to buy the best quality you can afford for your first (couple of) gun(s).

Having a flintlock that doesn’t function properly just sucks and is no fun. It can ruin your experience and your enjoyment.

What is the finish on your Bess? Tung oil?

 

[Rock Home Isle]

What is the finish on your Bess? Tung oil?

Post #110
https://www.muzzleloadingforum.com/threads/made-the-kibler-leap.146801/page-6

 

[Billy Boy]

Hey all I posted on the forum about a week ago about trying to find a nice rifle in .50 caliber and I want a flintlock. That being said a local shop has a Thompson Center Pennsylvania Hunter Flintlock .50 caliber. The Pennsylvania hunter is $475 which is in my budget but the shop owner said that the Thompson Center Flintlocks need work to be good as he says they are unreliable. He also has a Dixie Tennesee Rifle and showed me how bad it sparks. (He wasnt plannin on sellin it so he got it dirty to show me what he meant). He told me to save some more and buy a contemporary rifle and it will suit my needs. I really dont want to buy multiple rifles as I dont see the need to have rifles lying around collecting dust. That being said should I go for this Pennsylvania Hunter (It is in good condition by the way) or should I save up some more for a contemporary built rifle of higher quality ?

How many fishing rods do you have? How many golf clubs? You can’t make do with one rifle; it isn't humanly possible….

 

[springfield art]

Update on this post I haggled him around to $350 and he said he'd have to take a day or two to think it over. He tried to sell me a Sam River flintlock Hawken rifle in .62 caliber but it was awkward and heavy (12lb rifle) and i have 200 .490 round balls and a mix or .010"/.015" patches so I want a .50. I already got some 2F powder so now all I need is a rifle. Will update if my hagglin was successful.

Twelve pounds??!! Eccchhh!

 

[springfield art]

My 1st flintlock was a musket, I built a Brown Bess kit. That gun has taught pretty much every thing that I needed to know about how to operate and shoot a flintlock. There is a skill in being happily proficient with a flintlock, and it starts with a good quality product.

View attachment 157287
On my kitgun, there were issues. The fit between the frizzen and the pan was pretty bad, and the gun would not spark. I sent the lock back to Dixie GunWorks and when it came back…it was perfect. Today, I can make those repairs myself, back then I had no clue and had to rely on the skill and knowledge of others.

View attachment 157294
After several years of shooting my Bess, I bought my next flintlock. This was a semi-custom gun .45 calibre TVM Southern Mississippi PoorBoy (Top Rifle).

What I’m trying to say is…flintlocks are not like percussion guns. There is a higher level of quality needed to produce a good solid quality flintlock. You need a well built quality lock, and the flash hole needs to be properly located. That almost never happens consistently with a commercially manufactured gun. Until you have a good background knowledge, I’d advise you to buy the best quality you can afford for your first (couple of) gun(s).

Having a flintlock that doesn’t function properly just sucks and is no fun. It can ruin your experience and your enjoyment.

I have a couple Besses, but not one of the neat little Carbines! I'd be considering one if a used one came up at a meet. Saw one that was asking 500 at the Gun Maker's Fair, and it was getting lots of attention; don't know if it sold, but often people will take 400 for something marked 500.

 

[Dale Lilly]

It is not always about the money. I think any Flinter needs work, some just more than others. I have read on this forum where many people are using T/C's, CVA's, Traditions and GPRs and they seem to work fine. I have a few handmade custom flint rifles by very reputable well known builders. they shoot fine. I have an Investarms GPR (capper) that I built from a kit, that I love, It shoots every bit as well as my others. I just ordered another Investarms GPR in Flint. I am looking forward to building it and getting it tuned properly. There is enough knowledge on this forum to do anything that is needed. IMHO

Good day. I have built and used two Lyman [Investarms] GPR rifles. They are percussion, but I think they are as fundamentally sound as my $2K to $3K rifles. Good machines! Dale

 

[hanshi]

Barrels are, for the most part, not an issue even the imported ones. Most need a little crown work and sometimes rough burrs in the bore are a problem, but both problems are easily and quickly remedied.

 

[Snake Pleskin]

Good day. I have built and used two Lyman [Investarms] GPR rifles. They are percussion, but I think they are as fundamentally sound as my $2K to $3K rifles. Good machines! Dale

I agree 110%!

 

[NorthFork]

There are some people who think that if you don't spend megabucks then whatever you buy is junk. Since I don't have megabucks I've bought 5 different Traditions flintlocks and haven't been disappointed in any of them. Some have needed a little putzing with in order to figure out what they like at first but they all work good now.

Yes. Pretty much this. Older CVA's, Traditions, Lyman/Investarms, Pedersoli's (older IS better) are 9/10 of a custom in reliability/durability for 5/10 the cost.. Maybe not as HC/PC. Sometimes nowhere near as HC/PC as a hand built custom. but still at half to maybe at worst 3/4 cost.

Oh and your "putzing" has to be done on most customs as well.

 

[M. De Land]

Yes. Pretty much this. Older CVA's, Traditions, Lyman/Investarms, Pedersoli's (older IS better) are 9/10 of a custom in reliability/durability for 5/10 the cost.. Maybe not as HC/PC. Sometimes nowhere near as HC/PC as a hand built custom. but still at half to maybe at worst 3/4 cost.

Oh and your "putzing" has to be done on most customs as well.

Yeah, I bought two very nice, brand new , high end match pistols in .36 cal, flint and percussion, both needed some work to bring them up to full potential. The flint gun went back because it wouldn't spark , it came back and still wouldn't reliably spark so I wound up heat bending the **** forward a few degrees and that solved the problem. The percussion mate to the flinter required me to mill out and harden a new sear bar before it straighten-ed out and worked right.
Both are very good now and I wouldn't part with either. These were custom built pistols with a good reputation but non the less needed some tweeking to bring them up to speed .
They will both shoot better than I can hold for now .

 

[Snake Pleskin]

Good day. I have built and used two Lyman [Investarms] GPR rifles. They are percussion, but I think they are as fundamentally sound as my $2K to $3K rifles. Good machines! Dale

I agree. My I built my GPR from a kit 20 yrs ago and I love it! I have received many compliments regarding it over the years.