Unfamiliar Matchlock Style

[TobJohn]

I came across a late 1500s type of matchlock that I cannot find much information on. Here are some examples:

A matchlock rifle of an arsenal, dating: 17th Century

GUNS & RIFLES - A MATCH LOCK ARQUEBUS

Interessante moschetto a miccia da forcella di tipo militare | Czerny's | ArsValue.com

Ambrose Antique Guns, Antique Firearms, Guns, Firearms, Antique Weapons, Antique Arms & Antique Armor, Antique Armour--Wheelock Longarms

A RARE MATCHLOCK ARQUEBUS

They seem to be most frequently associated with Italy, but none of the sources for the images are particularly authoritative and I am extremely suspicious of the information on the Ambrose link.

They do look vaguely similar to the final evolution of petronels/calivers in this thread:
Matchlock Petronels, Germany, ca. 1550-1600 - Ethnographic Arms & Armour

Any information is greatly appreciated.

 

[Flint62Smoothie]

FWIW I have one! A 62-cal caliver made by Brian Anderson after an original, as posted below.

That's the one I was going to take detailed measurements of for you ... but as you can surmise ... I ain't got around to it yet!

To me, the others you posted with the really curvy butts aren't pistols, but perhaps petronels. We should add them as an arm type to the other post we have on-going about key BP dates (along with pictures), or we'll start a new one, as those were fired from the chest, and not shot from the shoulder. In short, the arms development (pistols aside) of what would become muskets to rifles went from:

-Handgonnes under the arm or over the shoulder, sometimes shot as 2-man teams, to

-Arguebus and/or hackenbushe (spelled various ways), held and fired from the hip, or perhaps sighted down the barrel if the 'hook' on the hakens was held over the edge of a wall or rampart, or side of a wooden war wagon (of which I believe you have seen pictures of), to

-Chest-fired petronels or snaplocks, of which I believe Pukka Bundook's excellent Tusco-Emilian Snap Matchlock from 1525 emulates, to

-Cheek-fired arms, still typically matchlocks (think like the Japanese Tanegashimas) and early wheellocks, to

-True shoulder fired arms designed for that purpose ...

I'm afraid someone else is going to have to provide more details on Petronels, not a field I'm into, although I think they're beautiful! Also see here: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Petronel

 

[TobJohn]

FWIW I have one! A 62-cal caliver made by Brian Anderson after an original, as posted below.

View attachment 195171

That's the one I was going to take detailed measurements of for you ... but as you can surmise ... I ain't got around to it yet!

To me, the others you posted with the really curvy butts aren't pistols, but perhaps petronels. We should add them as an arm type to the other post we have on-going about key BP dates (along with pictures), or we'll start a new one, as those were fired from the chest, and not shot from the shoulder. In short, the arms development (pistols aside) of what would become muskets to rifles went from:

-Handgonnes under the arm or over the shoulder, sometimes shot as 2-man teams, to

-Arguebus and/or hackenbushe (spelled various ways), held and fired from the hip, or perhaps sighted down the barrel if the 'hook' on the hakens was held over the edge of a wall or rampart, or side of a wooden war wagon (of which I believe you have seen pictures of), to

-Chest-fired petronels or snaplocks, of which I believe Pukka Bundook's excellent Tusco-Emilian Snap Matchlock from 1525 emulates, to

-Cheek-fired arms, still typically matchlocks (think like the Japanese Tanegashimas) and early wheellocks, to

-True shoulder fired arms designed for that purpose ...

I'm afraid someone else is going to have to provide more details on Petronels, not a field I'm into, although I think they're beautiful! Also see here: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Petronel

I am glad you responded because I had noticed yours, which you posted here, was the same style.

I am a little suspicious of petronels being fired from the chest, but that is not an area I have been able to find enough information on. Michael had some pictures of a great Nuremberg one in his post, but there were no dimensions and its museum has not digitized it, but they did see fit to upload literally several hundred halberds. I guess someone really into HEMA might enjoy it.
The gun in question:

The hip fired ones are also strange because there is plenty of art supporting it, but almost every surviving piece seems to have sights:

Due to an appropriate sized barrel for a snapping arquebus still being months away and my excitement of the other thread, I ended up buying a .62 42 inch barrel today that was in stock and am going to build a petronel/caliver, so I actually would greatly appreciate some measurements of your piece. All the metal and tools I bought for the snapping arquebus should hopefully work.

For calivers(arquebuses/petronels/whatever), I was considering something like the Italian ones I posted when I started the thread/yours, the petronel with the blue background in the same post, a fishtail styled gun (cant find a good example of an original), or this:

Matchlock muzzle-loading arquebus - Or Caliver A military style in use across Europe at this time. - Royal Armouries collections

 

[TobJohn]

FWIW I have one! A 62-cal caliver made by Brian Anderson after an original, as posted below.

View attachment 195171

That's the one I was going to take detailed measurements of for you ... but as you can surmise ... I ain't got around to it yet!

To me, the others you posted with the really curvy butts aren't pistols, but perhaps petronels. We should add them as an arm type to the other post we have on-going about key BP dates (along with pictures), or we'll start a new one, as those were fired from the chest, and not shot from the shoulder. In short, the arms development (pistols aside) of what would become muskets to rifles went from:

-Handgonnes under the arm or over the shoulder, sometimes shot as 2-man teams, to

-Arguebus and/or hackenbushe (spelled various ways), held and fired from the hip, or perhaps sighted down the barrel if the 'hook' on the hakens was held over the edge of a wall or rampart, or side of a wooden war wagon (of which I believe you have seen pictures of), to

-Chest-fired petronels or snaplocks, of which I believe Pukka Bundook's excellent Tusco-Emilian Snap Matchlock from 1525 emulates, to

-Cheek-fired arms, still typically matchlocks (think like the Japanese Tanegashimas) and early wheellocks, to

-True shoulder fired arms designed for that purpose ...

I'm afraid someone else is going to have to provide more details on Petronels, not a field I'm into, although I think they're beautiful! Also see here: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Petronel

A stock style chronology could be an interesting addition. I have noticed the 1500s have all the cool development, but that also means it is a sh!tshow to sort through.

 

[Flint62Smoothie]

I am a little suspicious of petronels being fired from the chest, but that is not an area I have been able to find enough information on.

Uhhhmmmmm … you do realize that Petronel actually means ‘chest’, right?

The name Peronel, French 'petrinel' or 'poitrina' was given to the weapon either because it was fired with the butt resting against the chest, from French 'poitrine', and Latin 'pectus’.

 

[TobJohn]

Uhhhmmmmm … you do realize that Petronel actually means ‘chest’, right?

The name Peronel, French 'petrinel' or 'poitrina' was given to the weapon either because it was fired with the butt resting against the chest, from French 'poitrine', and Latin 'pectus’.

I do, but Michael’a claim is that it was held in front of the chest, not against the chest, as most museums and websites claim.

I have a bunch of similar depictions in a book, but I can’t find them online.* Obviously I have never handled one, so I have no actual idea.

A comparison could be the Type 89 mortar. It was called a knee mortar by Americans, but firing it from your knee would break your leg.

*I checked and they are the same artist but the shooting ones are from the same picture.

 

[TobJohn]

I believe @Rudyard has a petronel and might be able to shed some light on the situation of how they are fired.

 

[Flint62Smoothie]

I do, but Michael’s claim is that it was held in front of the chest, not against the chest, as most museums and websites claim.

Great point! Too bad anyone we could ask is dead ... and I don't mean Michael ...

 

[TobJohn]

Great point! Too bad anyone we could ask is dead ... and I don't mean Michael ...

Very true. The limited information that does exist is also in 400+ year old German, French, or Spanish.

The upside is that it is ripe for experimental archeology because it would be pretty simple to test what works.

 

[Flint62Smoothie]

The upside is that it is ripe for experimental archeology because it would be pretty simple to test what works.

Less as a species, we tend to be larger than they were ... think about the height between the decks of old wooden ships of sail, e.g., HMS Victory, never mind the size of the uniforms they wore that have been preserved.

So it's not truly a one for one scenario. Example, that alleged 'Mayflower' wheellock I had built to match the one that John Alden was believed to have brought to Plymouth, Mass in 1620. Well it turns out there's no provenance for that, but the original does date to the 1600s, and the length of pull for a shoulder-stocked arm is 10-1/2". The typical norm for arms (MZL or modern) is now 13-3/4" +/-.

 

[TobJohn]

Less as a species, we tend to be larger than they were ... think about the height between the decks of old wooden ships of sail, e.g., HMS Victory, never mind the size of the uniforms they wore that have been preserved.

So it's not truly a one for one scenario. Example, that alleged 'Mayflower' wheellock I had built to match the one that John Alden was believed to have brought to Plymouth, Mass in 1620. Well it turns out there's no provenance for that, but the original does date to the 1600s, and the length of pull for a shoulder-stocked arm is 10-1/2". The typical norm for arms (MZL or modern) is now 13-3/4" +/-.

Fair point, but I actually am authentic arquebusier sized, at least for a region with decent health. The one upside of being short.

Actually I double checked and the articles I saw were widely varied in height, with most showing 1400-1650 having a taller average height than before or the following 200 years. For the couple of articles I quickly skimmed, they were all for skeletons found in England.

I read the Spanish maintained a high ratio of arquebuses in Tercios, even after a lot of countries moved to almost exclusively muskets, because their Walloon and German troops were in too poor of physical shape to carry the heavy muskets.

 

[TobJohn]

Studies of the skeletons tell us about the people onboard the Vasa.

The Vasa museum’s research found the skeletons to be much shorter, so maybe only England was having a good time.

 

[rickystl]

If you visit a U.S. Civil War museum, and note that the original uniforms would likely fit a 14 year old male today.

Rick

 

[TobJohn]

If you visit a U.S. Civil War museum, and note that the original uniforms would likely fit a 14 year old male today.

Rick

Didn't the Industrial Revolution cause a decrease in average height amongst urban people, until the 20th century? I am trying to find a good article that is not politically motivated but if I remember correctly, that meant many Americans and Brits in the 1800s would have been shorter than they were before and after. Would make a lot of sense for the civil war, with many confederate infantry being poor rural workers and many union troops coming from cities.

 

[rickystl]

Original suites of armour, off their stands, seem to average only about 5'4" tall, or so. In some of my Threads on Middle Eastern/Central Asian shoulder guns, I mention the common LOP's being between 11-12". Of course people in these regions were typically of smaller stature than Europeans.

By the way, has anyone noticed that each generation seems to average a larger shoe size ? LOL

Rick

 

[TobJohn]

Original suites of armour, off their stands, seem to average only about 5'4" tall, or so. In some of my Threads on Middle Eastern/Central Asian shoulder guns, I mention the common LOP's being between 11-12". Of course people in these regions were typically of smaller stature than Europeans.

By the way, has anyone noticed that each generation seems to average a larger shoe size ? LOL

Rick

Oh duh, armor is a great point. Thanks for bringing that up and that is a great way to study the trend. A part of armor I did know about is that they often show how even wealthy well trained soldiers had a much slimmer physique then modern people expect.

I do not know about shoes, but when I was googling articles on height, almost all of them were "Americans are not growing much taller, but they are growing wider"...

To tie into the original theme of this thread, it is interesting how such massive matchlocks were the norm for so long when your average musketeer was between 5'4"-5'8" (depending on country and time) and often in poor physical shape. I think the very top matchlock I posted is in the 10lbs+ range.

 

[TobJohn]

I noticed something distinctive about almost all of these allegedly Italian matchlocks and this additional Italian petronel I found:

Art works

Their serpentines are mostly a very clear backwards "C" shape, opposed to a more shallow curve or the "?" shape most other matchlocks have.

There is some variation and they do not all follow it, but it does look like a trend.

 

[Rudyard]

Well as Ime mentioned as a maker of Petronels I can only claim I have made just two .One for the gunner of the' Golden Hinde ' now resides in a Winnipeg Museum. I hunted with it before delivery when she was being rigged at Appledore Devon but didn't note any particular plus or difficulty . But it was bigger than the last one I made as I had a Walnut slab that had such curved grain it seems begging to be made a Petronel & I did listen & did just that , But I found it too small Or me Too big to opperate to any chest supported idea & only found it workable at wobbley best as a sort of Japoneese cheek stock hold, any hopes of haveing a practcal aimed shot. soon vanished and not owning armour it was decidedly difficult to shoot with out fire risk to my hair & whiskers .In short they don't make sense but they certainly made them . We cant asked the original owners so just go on the old paintings and wonder why & how they messed with the stupid things . However ere I be remonstrated with by the ' Petronel Supporters Society 'Inc (Or pencil ) I might come up with a workable size find a breast plate & further persue these curious guns .

Your most Obie smokeing servant Rudyard.

PS Beedis are a raunchy little crude if cheap cigarette type article widely sold in India
I bought a packet once as a curio but never smoked any cigarette's

 

[TobJohn]

Well as Ime mentioned as a maker of Petronels I can only claim I have made just two .One for the gunner of the' Golden Hinde ' now resides in a Winnipeg Museum. I hunted with it before delivery when she was being rigged at Appledore Devon but didn't note any particular plus or difficulty . But it was bigger than the last one I made as I had a Walnut slab that had such curved grain it seems begging to be made a Petronel & I did listen & did just that , But I found it too small Or me Too big to opperate to any chest supported idea & only found it workable at wobbley best as a sort of Japoneese cheek stock hold, any hopes of haveing a practcal aimed shot. soon vanished and not owning armour it was decidedly difficult to shoot with out fire risk to my hair & whiskers .In short they don't make sense but they certainly made them . We cant asked the original owners so just go on the old paintings and wonder why & how they messed with the stupid things . However ere I be remonstrated with by the ' Petronel Supporters Society 'Inc (Or pencil ) I might come up with a workable size find a breast plate & further persue these curious guns .

Your most Obie smokeing servant Rudyard.

PS Beedis are a raunchy little crude if cheap cigarette type article widely sold in India
I bought a packet once as a curio but never smoked any cigarette's

Thanks for the perspective. I guess when something looks awkward to use, it is in fact awkward to use and there is no special secret.

Its use with armor is an interesting point and does make a little sense.

 

[Arquebusier]

I came across a late 1500s type of matchlock that I cannot find much information on. Here are some examples:
View attachment 195127

This one is similar to the one below that may have been used in Plymouth.