Use of brass cutlers pins

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u_p_country

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Howdy gents,

I ordered a knife blade and some cutlers pins the other day and started putting some nice oak scales on the handle when I realized that I had no idea how to use the cutlers pins to hold the scales in place. any suggestions? Or perhaps a good book on the subject. I should have asked these before I got started. OOPS!! :redface:

Thanks in advance!!
 
Never used them. I just take brass rod, cut my pins and peen them on the ends. Peen one end, insert in the pinhole, and peen the other end. Never had one fail...Bud
 
Thanks for the tip! This may sound dumb, but what do you mean by peening? Thanks for helping such a goon.
 
Leave the pin over-length, Beat it with a ball peen hammer on both sides as you hold it on a steel surface. The forms a head and becomes a rivet. If you go too far, you will split the wood. Go until tight, but no more than that. You will need the over length to be about that of the pin diameter on both sides. If using brass, anneal the pin by heating red hot, then let it cool, or quench in water. Iron pins were the common, in the 18th c., brass was used later on. If you want a flush pin, then you need to countersink your holes in the wood first. That is really the best way to go. Another way, is to countersink the wood, C-clamp the grips in place. Lay on a flat steel surface, and pour molten solder into the holes. This was done on WW-2 John Ek combat knives. Works very well, and is easier, and no chance of hammering too tight!
 
Yup little taps around in a circle. Some people grind the ends to a cone shape first. If you make the pin too long you get a large rivet head. Too short and it won't hold. Hit too hard and the pin will bend in the middle.

Brass is usually a later type than steel/iron. Coat hanger is the same size as the early trade knife pins.

:v
 
If you stop by any welding shop, they have brazing rods that are made of a soft metal, that is about 1/8" in diameter. I bought a couple of rods from a welder friend, as he used them with his electric Arc welder unit, and bought them by the dozens. They were soft enough to cut with ordinary wire cutters, but hard enough to take a good bit of hammering on the ends to form the pins.

I am not a fan of Oak slabs for knife handles, simply because the wood is often " Brittle " and will not take much abuse. People tend to throw knives in drawers, and even into the sink, and the oak wood handle ends just don't stand up to the impacts very often before they begin to splinter.

However, use what you have, and learn. you can always replace them later, and do a better job the next time around. Its how almost everyone I know who has made knives learns. Why should you be an exception? :thumbsup:

As for peening, practice on a pice held in a vise. Tap on the end of the wire until it flattens out like the head on a brad, or finishing nail- about twice the diameter of the rod. If you cut this practice pin over length, it can become the first pin you use on your slabs. By peening the first end over in a vise, you will learn how soft, or hard the taps have to be, and how many you have to make to for the head the way you want it. I use a 3/16" drill bit to " countersink " the entry holes on both sides of the slab, so that the pins can be filed flush with the wood.

A machinist hammer has a flat head on one end, and a Ball "Peen " on the opposite end. They come in various weights. When you go to the hardware store buy only the heaviest one that you feel you need. Don't be afraid to ask. I prefer people start with the lighter weight hammer- no more than a 4 oz. head for this kind of work. The larger heads are for really heavy work, and most hobbyists just don't have any need or use for such a hammer. If you work on cars, THEN you need the heavy-weight headed hammers. When you are peening the second end of the wire, after the rod is run through the two slabs and the tang, you can also use a " Nailset " , a carpenter's device to help hold the heads of finishing nails while they are hammered down below the surface of the wood they are holding. The nailset has a small cup to the face of it, and that can be used to help round, or " Peen " over the metal. Always put the side with the first end of the rod against a steel surface, to keep the pin from movinb back out of the tang with your blows to the second end. A helper to hold the knife steady while you do this is nice to have.

Do expect that the rod, to some extent, may swell in the wood and tang so its locked in place in the hole. After drilling the holes in the tang, and then in both slabs, I like to use epoxy glues to hold the slabs to the metal tang. I insert the pins while the epoxy is wet, and finish peening the second end of the pins after the epoxy dries. The epoxy serves as that " helper " sometimes when no one is around.

Using both pins and epoxy, the slabs will stay on the tang, even if you file the slabs and heads of the pins down quite a bit.

Don't leave any rough end of the peened head sticking above the surface of the slab, for it will surely dig into and abrade the surface of your hand and fingers while using the knife. A few strokes with a fine toothed draw file, followed with some emery cloth, or even sand paper, will smooth the ends and level them with the slab's surface. Then the slabs are ready to be finished with stain, and/ or wood finish.
 
Actually you use a ball-pien hammer. That is a hammer that has a hammer head on one side and a round ball on the other side. Dont buy a cheap one. They are soft. The ball must be harder than the hubs of Hell. It also must be polished slick, as it has to slide. That is where the term pien comes from, hitting and sliding.

To attach the scales to the tang you need to align your scales and clamp and epoxy them. The holes in the scales should be drilled square to begin with then they should be tapered and countersunk. Yes we are talking some work here. You cut your pins over length by the diameter of the pin. You should have a steel plate with the proper size hole drilled to the depth of the diameter of the pin to insert the bottom end in. Then you begin piening the top end, round and round and round. The pin will upset or swell to fill the tapered hole and it pulls the scale down tight to the tang. You should have just a bit of dome on the pin to grind flat or file, leaving a flat-round end that looks like a counter sunk flat head rivet!!. Then turn the knife over and set the one you just did on the flat steel and pien the other end down. I use quite a bit of oak and if you dont get into the sledgehammer mode you will be ok. For the knife pins probably a 8-10 ounce hammer would work best. I use a 5 ounce on small pins and a 10 ounce on 1/8". The small hammer wont upset the pin into the taper as well as the slightly heavier one will. 12-16 ounce are just too heavy to guide. The import hammers do not have a proper shaped pien ball, so dont even waste your money. Like I said, look for a polished ball. If it is ground rough, keep looking. Plumb makes good hammers.

I mentioned tapering the holes, I have a special long taper reamer I use. For just a few knives, you can use the point on a spade bit, just go easy, you dont need a cavern, just some taper to hold it. Also dont need a huge counter sink, just enough to hold most of the head so it doesnt end up domed. You can do that with iron pins too. Funny, oak wasnt used much for knife handles but hickory was....strange, eh?
 
I looked this up in my Webster's dictionary and found nothing with your spelling, " Pien", but under " peen" they do mention a " Ball-peen " hammer. Sorry. :shocked2: :hatsoff:
 
I hate this edit feature. It does not give you time enough to fix things or find photos. You just about get it ready and it craps on you and says you have used up your time. Sucks.

I wanted to add this picture to the above post.
8738Dcp01729.jpg

It shows the ends of the pins sanded down smoothe. In actuality,the holes are tapered and epoxied so the scales will never come loose. This knife isnt period, but I believe it to be the best design I have ever used. This is a knife of my own making, ATS-34 steel, 3-3/4" blade, linen micarta scales, nickel silver pins and bolster. Bolster is pinned and sweated to the blade with silver solder. It is a crooked back skinner design. It has a drop point which is a must in my hunting camp. Tiz my favorite using knife.

Cant expect city boys to know much about ball pien hammers.

Search for ball pien hammers and see what you find. I am correct. http://www.motorera.com/dictionary/BA.HTM
scroll down to ball pien hammer and read away.
Ball-pien is the original proper spelling. Then people who cant spell anyway came along and corrupted it to ball-peen.
 
Last edited by a moderator:
Nice knife. Put a choil( finger clip) in front of the quillion wide enough to fit the second knuckle on your index finger and you have a great working design for a knife that may get very bloody gutting and skinning game. :thumbsup: :hatsoff:
 
Bountyhunter said:
I hate this edit feature. It does not give you time enough to fix things or find photos. You just about get it ready and it craps on you and says you have used up your time. Sucks.

Members have 30 minutes to edit their posts. I felt that that was enough time to proof-read and find typos.

If it takes you more than a half-hour to make each post, I suggest you compose your post off-line and then paste it into the forum. That way, you can take as much time as you like to run your spell-checker, rewrite the content, gather photos, etc.
 
The blade is already short, so taking another inch out of it would take the straight slicing edge out. It has the drop point, but still has a nice point for puncturing if needed. The reason I used the linen micarta is that it does not slick up when bloody. This knife has dressed about 15 deer so far, and even when bloody and fatty, is not slick in the grip. I didnt stick it in to steal the thread, just to show how the pins work. I have used the stabilized oak for scales on several hunters, and they also handle well when bloody. When using oak on the scales, I use a layer of red gasket material next to the tang then the oak over the top. It looks nice together.
 
Well, when something strikes you 20 minutes later to edit, delete, add to or post a picture to, then 30 minutes is definitely not adequate. There is no logical reason to limit it to 30 minutes. Most forums give you a couple hours. Some of us have lives in other venues and do not sit on this forum 24/7.

When we go to do constructive things and get a thought, then it is usually too late to get back and make a rational change. What really pi$$es me off is getting things mostly done and poke the post button and the dang thing throws a screen in your face that you have exceeded your alloted time. Many people have brought this same issue up before.
 
OK Here's my 2 cents worth In reply to UP country Eh? I don't care for cutler pins much either, but if you have them I guess use them. first make sure the holes in the knife blade are big enough for the female pin to go through.Or a little larger. Then check to see if the pins when pushed together are going to be the same as the thickness of your handle scales. They come in different lengths. I then slightly counter bore into the wood a hole the same Dia. as the head of the pin,and about as deep. This lets the pin set into the wood some so that when shaping the handle you don't shave the head off.. I usually squeeze them together with my vise. One other thing when using brazing rod or brass pins. I anneal the ends of the rod, that seems to help the peened over end from splitting and makes peening easier. hope that helps. Len
 
My 2 cents worth. I have to agree with Claude. I have found myself getting into a reply/post, thinking about adding something else I didn't have in front of me and just backing out of the post and getting better prepared. Then when I was ready, go back in. If I thought of something during the edit cycle, I just said I would be back with something else later and do a separate post. IMHO, being organized ahead really helps getting replies posted.
:v
 
Bountyhunter said:

Not trying to be a A.H. but I do have a question on the design.

How to make it. Knives, Tomahawks, Horns, Clothing, Bags, etc. Traditional Only - no modern designs.

How old are these designs? I have mostly researched fur trade knives so I really have no idea.

Thanks.
:v
 
deano said:
My 2 cents worth. I have to agree with Claude. I have found myself getting into a reply/post, thinking about adding something else I didn't have in front of me and just backing out of the post and getting better prepared. Then when I was ready, go back in. If I thought of something during the edit cycle, I just said I would be back with something else later and do a separate post. IMHO, being organized ahead really helps getting replies posted.
:v


Please keep comments about this in the "Using the Forum" area. I started a new thread there, just for this issue.

Thanks.
 
There is no room for doubt on this knife design. It is 90% modern, however, Bountyhunter posted it to show the pins as an example of what he feels they should be, and not necessarily to show off the knife itself. I think in a case like this, the modern design can be overlooked in the interest of trying to answer the original post. In the end, this would be Claudes call.
 

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