using subs with plastic wads

[Drago]

Do they work better? I wondered if they burn as hot, mostly of triple 7. Thinking of trying them for steel shot. Substitute shot is pricey. I don't want to melt it in the bore. Or do you have a better idea?

 

[theoldredneck]

Do not know how well it would work with steel shot because I do not use it. I have used the plastic shot cups and they work well. Different brands give different parrerns. I like something I saw on this forum that has worked for me and I like it. You cut strips from a paper bag. Use a wooden rod smaller than bore size and make a x with the strips over the end of the rod forming a shot cup. I take a 2" wide clear packing tape and go around it to finish the cup. When I load them I use a over the powder card and wad. Then start the cup in the barrel and put the shot in fold the end of the paper over push it into the barrel add a over the shot card and push it down. So far patterns have been very good even from cylinder bore barrels.

 

[Firelock937]

Can't imagine that Triple 7 would burn any hotter than smokeless powder in a modern shotgun.
I would suggest biting the bullet and get some non-toxic shot other than steel. Steel requires high velocity to have good effectiveness...higher than we can achieve in a muzzleloader, aside from the damage it can do to your bore. Get some ITX or Nice shot that can still have some knockdown power at lower velocity. It will cost more, but will work much better. A 7 pound quantity will make almost 90 1 1/4 oz. loads. That's a lot of shooting from a muzzleloader.

 

[BrownBear]

In my experience standard plastic wads (Rem and WW anyway) will have as many problems with subs as black powder. No idea about the heavier wads intended for steel, but I bet they do too.

That's not unfixable. In fact there's an easy fix. Just put a lubed fiber or felt wad between the plastic wad and the powder. Due to the opening petals of the plastic wad, I've seen zero tendency for the fiber wad to blow through a pattern as some claim.

My issue with steel is that I can't drive it fast enough to give the kind of reliable kills I want. I've tried to compensate by using larger shot, but by the time the shot is big enough to really work at lower BP velocities, the pattern is getting mighty thin.

 

[Billnpatti]

Don, I've never tried the plastic shot cups so I don't know how they will work. but, if I were to guess, I'd say that they will work just fine. I would expect that you will have plastic smears inside your bore after using them. I had them in my modern shotguns which shot shells with plastic shot cups so using them in a muzzleloader should be no different. It'll just need a bit more scrubbing to get the plastic out of your bore or use one of the modern products that are made for removing plastic from the bore of modern shotguns. What I used to use was a paper cup made from different papers. Different papers gave different patterns. You could tighten up your shot pattern just a bit by going from a thinner paper such as printer paper to paper grocery bags to index cards. The cups are easy to make and I will show you how at the next WSB shoot on the 28th of this month. Will you be there?

 

[greggholmes]

That's what I like to see, two posters offered no advice other then to go modern. What better way to keep a sport alive then to tell people to get out of it. :youcrazy:

You ever think he might not be able to use lead shot in his area?
Others offerd real alternate solutions, others offered nothing but criticism.

 

[Wes/Tex]

There are several trains of thought on this subject, as you may have already noticed. The plastic shot cups and wads CAN definitely use in muzzleloading fowlers with varying results. First, they may not be the correct to use in muzzleloading guns because of their actual diameter. There is also the consideration that they may leave deposits of plastic smearing in the bore which is often difficult to remove, usually requiring scrubbing well with a brass bore brush. What little I've tried through the years have worked at least as well as the standard practice using felt wads and cards as traditionally done with fowlers. Get some and try them if you like and see if the results meet your criteria.

Another variation on this is one originated by the late Curly Gostomski that used the actual plastic shot shell case itself. For a 20 bore (.60") you used a 28 gauge case that had been cut from the brass base and emptied of the shot and wads, leaving the tube body with one end open and the other still crimped shut. To prevent this set-up from becoming a big bullet, Curly cut 6 cuts along the side of the case then cross cut each pair so it was loose along the sides and top. This cutting method started at the closed end of the case and went up 1/2 to 3/4 inch and were about 1/4 inch wide. The theory being that once this shot filled cup left the barrel the three wings cut in the side opened and acted as drags that slowed the plastic case and allowed the shot to accelerate ahead in a useful pattern. Sort of a primitive version of modern non-split shot cups. The things actually worked for me but would have been much more useful if a 12 gauge case actually fit a .75 or .77 musket bore. This would convert them into long range goose guns. Problem is not all standard bore sizes have matching shotgun shell cases of usable diameter. Toby Bridges picked up on this system and praised it mightily until he fell victim to the "dark side" and starting writing books about how traditional hunters were stupid, animal wounding bollocks that shouldn't be allowed to hunt. That's when I tossed out any book I had of his. Now if it doesn't shoot missles with plastic parts from titanium barrels using scientific powders shaped like donuts, it's wasteful, cruel on game, ineffecient, etc.. ad nauseum. I don't listen to those people, they're only in it for the money and topping out tickets...they've lost their souls in my book. I got no use for the snake oil they're peddling!! :shake:

 

[Drago]

Thanks for the useful replies, I was replying to a post about using brass .630 balls and wondered if brass shot would be a viable alternative? If its available that is.

 

[Drago]

found this weight chart, brass is about 25% lighter than lead where steel is 50% less
chart shows pounds per cubic inch

Brass 0.3048
Copper 0.321
Lead 0.409
steel 0.283
bismuth .3528 [if I did the math correct]

 

[matt denison]

That's what I like to see, two posters offered no advice other then to go modern. What better way to keep a sport alive then to tell people to get out of it. :youcrazy:

You ever think he might not be able to use lead shot in his area?
Others offerd real alternate solutions, others offered nothing but criticism.

Oh, contrair.

I answered each of his questions in the order they were asked with my opinion, (not your opinion)

As to keeping "the sport alive" this is a traditional muzzleloading forum. So let's work towards the traditioinal side rather than try to duplicate modern balistics by *******izing our traditional guns with plastic and alternative powders and other magnum izing ideas. Use your muzzleloader and enjoy it for what it is.

It seems we have regular discussions on how to make a gun or guns do what they were never intended to do. Fun to discuss, fun to explore the edges of the envelope but mostly fantasy nonetheless. For instance, if anyone thinks that
by using plastic wads and alternitive powder they will be successful on passing shots on geese at 40 yards using steel shot in a muzzleloader they should think twice.

:surrender:

 

[BrownBear]

If a guy wants to use steel or most titanium-based shot, learn how to spell this: P-L-A-S-T-I-C. Fact of life.

There are alternatives like bismuth, Nice Shot and ITX that can be used without plastic, and I greatly prefer them for my waterfowling. Lead is still legal here for everything else, so I use that without plastic too. I'd be spelling P-L-A-S-T-I-C every day of the week though, if I live in a place that prohibited lead for small and upland game, as well as waterfowl. The bismuth/Nice Shot/ITX would get way expensive if I had to shoot it for everything.

I'm not going to dump on another guy that makes different choices, any more than I would accept him dumping on me for my choices.

 

[theoldredneck]

I understand the "need" not want to use the black powder subs. Here for example I can get the subs local and easy in one pound sizes. Black powder I have to get bulk and it is easier through a group buy with some shooters about an hours drive from here. I shoot both to make the black last longer between orders. I used the plastic because I had them from shot shells and was trying to improve cylinder bore patterns from a muzzle loader. The home made paper cups I found out about here worked better than plastic shot cups. I make mine a little different because of materials that were handy. I don't shoot steel because it is not required for what I shoot yet. A friend has played with it a lot because he duck hunts. He said shooting equal amounts by weight instead of volume gave a better pattern but still did not help the lack of weight problem with pellet penetration. It cost more but he shoots hevi shot. I feel for the people that are having to deal with these no lead laws. They have no choice about the traditional use of lead and have to make the best of a bad law. Not wanting to run steel down a barrel is understandable. Steel on steel causes wear and damage.'

 

[matt denison]

There are alternatives like bismuth, Nice Shot and ITX that can be used without plastic, and I greatly prefer them for my waterfowling.

yup.

Steel shot doesn't work very well at Mzzldr velocities even with plastic components.

my only point

Ya start adding in plastic wads, alternative powder, soon it's high performance alternatives and then in line ignition with composite stock, then a stainless flutted barrel with high vis. sights. What's next? Four power scope and saboted bullets? Please Lord, just take me now.

A guy can have all of that if that is what he wants. Not in traditional B P smoothbore guns though.

Now I just want to say that I own, shoot and enjoy modern guns too. I have guns for different reasons and different jobs. I don't ask my muzzleloaders to do work that modern guns are intended to do and visa versa.

:surrender: :surrender: :surrender:

 

[bpd303]

Same here...although I have been known to use a crescent wrench as a hammer. :grin:

 

[Rifleman1776]

That's what I like to see, two posters offered no advice other then to go modern. What better way to keep a sport alive then to tell people to get out of it.

We are trying to keep the avocation alive, it isn't just "sport". There is no way to help those who play outside of the traditional parameters of the ml 'game'.
As I said, if you don't want to do the historically correct thing, go modern.
There is nothing :youcrazy: about our responses.

 

[theoldredneck]

I ask this not for argument but for information. For those that are dealing with the no lead laws what is the accepted way to hunt with a traditional muzzle loader when lead shot is not an allowed. Steel shot is more destructive on barrels than game. Just to see what it does in the paper home made shot cups a few were ran through a cylinder bore ml barrel with normal loads. It takes a thicker paper with steel than lead to keep from eating up the paper as it runs the barrel. To me steel would never be an option as long as something else was.

 

[gbeauvin]

I ask this not for argument but for information. For those that are dealing with the no lead laws what is the accepted way to hunt with a traditional muzzle loader when lead shot is not an allowed.

I, too, am interested in the answer to this. I don't yet have my traditional ML, but I hope to obtain a flintlock smoothbore before the small game season ends. While the local wildlife refuge allows small game hunting with a shotgun (sadly not a small-bore ML rifle), lead shot is prohibited regardless of the game you are hunting. I can (and will) find other places to hunt, but I'd like to be able to take advantage of this resource as well.

-GB

 

[vthunter52]

I wasn't going to reply here, but feel that it might help, and understand these are my opinions and experiences only.

I hunt waterfowl here on Lake Champlain, and use a sxs 20 ga. perc. shotgun. I has open chokes, and I have shot hundreds of steel shot loads through it, with no sign of bll. damage. I shoot 70 grs. 2fg. with equal measure of #2 steel, fiber wad over powder,( or pre-lubed felt wads), anfelt wads over shot. Within the range of 20-25 yds. over decoys, it is deadly, for me. It patterns fairly tight, and has a short shot string due to minimal distortion of the shot. It has been used with success in early season ducks, and late season divers.....minimal success on geese with careful shots, and willing to pass on longer distances. I feel no way under gunned, and find it most enjoyable......Gary

 

[Claude Mathis]

That's what I like to see, two posters offered no advice other then to go modern.

Those posts were deleted.

 

[BrownBear]

Are you shooting steel with no plastic wad? I haven't had the courage to risk it, based on all the horror stories, but you've got me all ears. In modern guns my steel choice is #2 also, so what you're saying makes sense to me within your specified range limits.