was there a "transitional Rifle"

[Nameless Hunter]

OK, more of my "not so easy to answer questions." Grin.

Caspar Wistar was importing rifles and rifle barrels in the then already preferred length of around 3 1/2 feet (42 inches) into Philadelphia in the 1740's. The rifles having come from the Palatine area of the Germanic States would of course been strongly Germanic.

But then these questions come to mind:

1. What gunsmith/s were already working on rifles in/around Philadelphia at that time and who would have used those barrels?

2. Would those rifles pretty much be copies of Germanic Rifles or did they already begin to show American colonial influences?

3. I don't think we have examples of rifles made/stocked here that early, do we?

Gus

Stumbled across a little more history on Palatinate, and German immigration to America...

In the 1560s, under Elector Frederick III, the Palatinate adopted Calvinism and became the bulwark of the Protestant cause in Germany. In 1608 his son, Elector Frederick IV, became the head of the Protestant Union, a military alliance. The Thirty Years War began around 1618 with a quarrel between supporters of Frederick V and the recently crowned Roman Catholic King of Bohemia, Ferdinand. The Palatinate, along with Germany, was plunged into a devastating conflict that left much of the land desolate. Before the end of this war, France, several German states, Sweden, Denmark, and the Netherlands all had become involved. The Peace of Westphalia in 1648 restored the Rhenish, or Lower, Palatinate to Frederick's son, Charles Louis.

The Palatinate was to face another assault from France near the end of the 17th Century. The War of the Grand Alliance involved Louis XIV of France, which was claiming part of the Palatinate (Rheinland-Pfalz), pitted against the League of Augsburg, a coalition of European princes. It lasted from 1687-1689. The Treaty of Ryswick restored the contested lands, but the land was so ravaged that many emigrated. In the early 1700's many German Palatine families re-settled out of Germany, with most fleeing to England (there were reports that the numbers arriving in London may have reached to 13,500). When England tired of the refugees, they were "encouraged" to move on, some then being shipped to Ireland, but most being moved on to settle in America.

 

[tenngun]

OK, I realize I'm about to ask for the period equivalent of the Rosetta Stone for this discussion and the probable impossibility of it being available, but are there any specific period descriptions as to what styles of gun mountings were available?

I imagine the styles were in agreement with the more popular rifle, smoothbore/fowling pieces, and pistols of the times as that is what their customers would have preferred, but can they be documented? OR perhaps are there any references to known gunsmiths buying from a particular foundry?

Gus

Edited to add: Yep, I'm the nerd who has a thousand questions I fully realize may not be able to be answered.

Your on a traditional ml site
This site has page after page discussing clothing styles, knife styles, cooking, the differences between a ‘63 charley and a ‘66 charley, camp fire recipes
Yeah your a nerd

 

[Rod Man]

^ For Realz!!! there are a bunch of them on this thread. I have enjoyed every post too! Wonder what that makes me...

 

[plmeek]

OK, going back to Caspar Wistar importing rifles from the Palatinate Region of Germany (Wiesbaden in the North down to Stuttgart in the South) are there known examples of trade or other rifles that could have been imported from that period and of which pictures are available?

I don't know of a source that would specifically answer your question. I don't know of any Germanic rifle that is known to have been imported into the Colonies and dates to that critical period of 1730s and 1740s.

Shumway's Rifles of Colonial America has a section on Germanic rifles and another section on rifles that could either be made in America or in Europe. He also collected all his "Longrifles of Note" articles on German guns and published them in one volume which is still available. I believe there have been other books published on German guns, but most of them are in German and not English. One can only draw inferences from these.

Attached is one of Shumway's "Longrifles of Note" articles where he presents some German and American rifles with curved lower edge that probably addresses one of your previous questions already answered by Eric but still may be of interest to you and others.

Eric has also mentioned fakes that have complicated the study of these real early rifles. Shumway writes in his Preface that Dillin was fooled by some fakes from the 1920s that had been back dated "1728", though the rifle so marked was made in the Lehigh Valley in the Federal Period.

Even if we had one rifle that we knew was imported from a Germanic country in the 1730s, it might not truly represent the total population of those imported because it would be statistically insignificant.

 

[Artificer]

I don't know of a source that would specifically answer your question. I don't know of any Germanic rifle that is known to have been imported into the Colonies and dates to that critical period of 1730s and 1740s.

Shumway's Rifles of Colonial America has a section on Germanic rifles and another section on rifles that could either be made in America or in Europe. He also collected all his "Longrifles of Note" articles on German guns and published them in one volume which is still available. I believe there have been other books published on German guns, but most of them are in German and not English. One can only draw inferences from these.

Attached is one of Shumway's "Longrifles of Note" articles where he presents some German and American rifles with curved lower edge that probably addresses one of your previous questions already answered by Eric but still may be of interest to you and others.

Eric has also mentioned fakes that have complicated the study of these real early rifles. Shumway writes in his Preface that Dillin was fooled by some fakes from the 1920s that had been back dated "1728", though the rifle so marked was made in the Lehigh Valley in the Federal Period.

Even if we had one rifle that we knew was imported from a Germanic country in the 1730s, it might not truly represent the total population of those imported because it would be statistically insignificant.

Thank you. GREAT PDF article!!

Gus

 

[Artificer]

Even if we had one rifle that we knew was imported from a Germanic country in the 1730s, it might not truly represent the total population of those imported because it would be statistically insignificant.

Good point. I guess I should have worded my question better.

What I'm looking for is more period examples of German Rifles that COULD have been imported during the 1730's-1750's and that fit the description of having barrels of 39" or longer.

It would be great if we could tie them into where German immigrants had come from in Germany, by region. My thinking here is one would think they would be more likely to import items from the regions they came from? Maybe not.

Gus

 

[excess650]

I'm aware of a J P Beck, but is anyone aware of a Jacob Dickert, Isaac Haines, John Bonewitz, or anyone else born here 1740-1760, rifle with a sliding wooden patchbox cover?

 

[rich pierce]

I'm aware of a J P Beck, but is anyone aware of a Jacob Dickert, Isaac Haines, John Bonewitz, or anyone else born here 1740-1760, rifle with a sliding wooden patchbox cover?

Dozens of sliding wooden patchbox guns come to mind. We can start with Schreit, 1761-dated rifle. Move over to Oerter-signed rifles at Christians Spring. Move over to Easton and Isaac Berlin. Back to Reading for a series of unsigned rifles with sliding wooden boxes. Move to Northampton and we have J Moll. This is just a start. On some Lehigh rifles, the sliding wooden box was often used into the 1790s and later.

 

[lexington1]

I have been following this very interesting thread. In my mind, this rifle is what I think of as a transitional rifle. Plenty of German features, but American manufacture. It's instantly identifiable as having some German connection, but funky looking enough that you know it was made here. I have been pondering this subject for quite a while and trying to sort out exactly where the crossover point is between imported German arms, arms assembled here from parts, such as maple stocked Jaeger variants, and purely manufactured, yet early American construction. Interesting stuff!

 

[ekettenburg]

Isn't that Jost Herbach?

 

[Brokennock]

I have been following this very interesting thread. In my mind, this rifle is what I think of as a transitional rifle. Plenty of German features, but American manufacture. It's instantly identifiable as having some German connection, but funky looking enough that you know it was made here. I have been pondering this subject for quite a while and trying to sort out exactly where the crossover point is between imported German arms, arms assembled here from parts, such as maple stocked Jaeger variants, and purely manufactured, yet early American construction. Interesting stuff!

Very nice rifle. I love how the wrist flows into the stick and seemingly through the wooden patch box.
What more can you tell us about her?
More pics?

 

[lexington1]

It is the Jost Herbach rifle. Jost was born in 1741 and lived a very interesting life. This rifle came down through his family was supposedly used by him in the Rev. War, and I have found two records that were written by him for pensions of men that he commanded and were wounded. One was at Trenton and the other Princeton. He was a captain in the York Co. Militia and was attached to Washingtons flying camp at that time. One of the men was specifically listed as a rifleman, which I thought was cool.

 

[ekettenburg]

That's ddefintiely an interesting piece and I do agree that it's likely a War era rifle. I certainly don't think it dates to after the War and in some ways it seems to parallel the work Oerter was doing in the years prior to the War, i.e. the stocks getting smaller and more graceful as opposed to earlier, large buttstocks with prominent step toe form (in his particular region). This rifle is interesting in that the lower butt molding also terminates at the grip rail, as if Herbach had been familiar with step stocks although there really doesn;t look to be much residual of one here other than the location of the molding termination. Is the stock rounded over under the grip rail or does a flat carry forward despite the molding termination?

 

[lexington1]

It is rounded. Not the best pic, but here it is. I think it's interesting that this lock is not original to the gun. It has not been converted to cap but the lock in its entirety has been changed, yet it has been on this rifle forever. I have a picture of it taken in the 60's that show it with this lock as well. Also the **** has been replaced by a folksy blacksmith example. It works just fine, just not refined. There is a lot of wear on the forend, at the balance point, There are remnants of carving there, but it's mostly been worn away. The barrel is still rifled and approx. .520 bore size. The bore appears to have maintained pretty well. The rifle has been used a lot, yet wasn't trashed.

 

[ekettenburg]

Thanks for that. I have a ton of pictures of it that someone sent me from @ 2009-2010, maybe you? I love the replacement lock that's in it. My guess would be that the original lock crapped out sometime early 19th century and was replaced with one that fit 'well enough' and worked at about that time; that's what the replacement lock looks like to me, probably American-made and very cool in its own right.

 

[lexington1]

Thanks Eric. That's kind of what I surmised also. The lock also had a little tiny nail holding the pointed end of the lockplate up, which I thought was kind of quaint but sort of neat.

 

[lexington1]

The lock.

 

[plmeek]

This thread has about run its course, but I had a couple other thoughts to throw out there.

Gus asked about rifles that date back to the F&I War and earlier. The answer was there may be some (a few candidates have been discussed) but unfortunately these early rifles aren't signed and/or dated.

A corollary question is what about smoothbore guns? Are any of the extant fowling pieces from the first half of the 18th century? The answer in this case is yes. Tom Grinslade's FLINTLOCK FOWLERS: The First Guns Made in America actually shows several.

The earliest appears to be New England (NE) Fowler #1 on page 32 of his book. Grinslade dates this gun, or least its major parts, to the second half of the 17th century. It was stocked in America in maple using repurposed parts. He says the barrel has "British proofs for 1640", though it's not clear if these are Board of Ordnance proofs or proofs of the newly chartered Gunmakers' Company. The gun has a "doglock" contemporary with the barrel.

The trigger guard is interesting in that it appears to be the same or very similar to fragments found at the site of the Hudson's Bay Company's Fort Albany. The Fort Albany trading post was occupied from the late 1670s until it was burned down by the French in 1686. The shape of the stock of NE #1 is very similar to S. James Gooding's rendering of a pre-1680 HBC trade gun shown on page 39 of his Trade Guns of the Hudson's Bay Company 1670-1970.

The origins of this gun are clearly 17th century, though it could have been restocked in maple later.

NE fowler #3 is signed "R MANNING" and dated 1737. NE fowler #5 has a date of 1743 on its round face lock and "NH 1751" on a barrel flat near the breech. An engraved name of "A Waldren" on the lock plate is thought to be spurious and placed there by a deceptive dealer in the 1930s.

Club Butt (CB) fowler #3 has a repurposed matchlock barrel and an imported English lock signed "W. BRAZIER," a London lock maker of about 1720. This fowler was stocked in America in maple.

CB #4 is one of the few fowlers that Grinslade shows that was not stocked in America. It's a typical English made club butt fowler with an "AR" on the lock which is the Royal "Anna Regina" cypher for Queen Anne. The tail of the lock is engraved "G. ALDREDGE 8" for the year 1708. The sideplate is a flat serpent sideplate similar to that seen on the Type G trade gun. These English club butt guns were sometimes traded to Inidians and are a copy of the French "Buccanneer" trade gun. This gun was a civilian gun rather than an Indian trade gun. The butt stock is extensively carved by a Colonial artisan in a folksy floral pattern on the top and both sides of the butt stock. The bottom of the butt stock is carved with initials and date "LR 1721."

Hudson Valley (HV) fowler #6 has the owner's name and date, 'YA COPTNYK - 1713" engraved on the butt plate.

HV #5 has a thumb piece shaped like a turtle and engraved with hash marks and "1740".

Grinslade shows several other New England, Club Butt, and Hudson Valley fowlers that he dates to the first half of the 18th century based on the guns characteristics.

So why do we have so many fowlers that we can date to the F&I War and earlier and not rifles? The answer is undoubtedly in the numbers, and to a lesser extent, timing and location.

The earliest military and civilian guns brought by the colonists were smooth bore. And the point of Grinslade's book is included in his subtitle--The First Guns Made in America were fowling pieces. There were a lot more fowlers in America before 1750 than there were rifles. Given the same survival rate, a lot more fowlers are going to survive to modern times than rifles.

The first colonists were English, French, and a few Dutch. They were from a part of Europe where the rifle wasn't common. The rifle appears to have come to America with immigrants from the Germanic countries in the early 1700s. We know that some rifles were used during the F&I War, but smooth bore muskets and civilian fowlers were clearly the dominate weapons used.

Grinslade organized the fowlers in his book by regional styles. The earliest ones are associated with New England (Massachusetts, Rhode Island, Connecticut, New Hampshire), and the Hudson Valley of New York. These happen to also be some of the earliest areas of trade and settlement. His Kentucky fowlers and British-style fowlers are from areas settled later in eastern Pennsylvania and the coastal regions of New York and New Jersey. It's particularly interesting that his earliest Kentucky fowlers date to just before the Rev. War. I don't know if this is telling us something or it just happened to be the guns he chose to discuss.

It's also possible that the owners of guns around Massachusetts and up the Hudson Valley, being of different religious persuasions, were simply more inclined to put their names and dates on their guns than the conservative Quakers, Mennonites, and Moravians of Pennsylvania.

 

[MTGUNNER]

Hi,
This debate is really fraught because most barrels and hardware used on colonial and pre Rev War rifles were imported from England and Europe. Yes barrels were made in the colonies but remember the British frowned on value added industries in the colonies. The colonies supplied raw materials to England and received finished goods in return. German gunsmiths occasionally made long barreled rifles. Perhaps the American innovation was a smaller rifle bore more economical on powder and lead but given greater striking force by a long barrel. Anyway, import manifests by Wister and others show that longer barrels were more popular in America even in the 1730s. Here is my version of the Edward Marshall rifle. It is a pretty close copy and shows a moderate barrel length (>37") but big bore. Not sure if it should be called transitional.

Dave, Dave, Dave: I truly LOVE your work!!!
>> Jan <<

 

[excess650]

I won't disagree that there were lots of fowlers in the colonies, but the longrifle was the product of mostly of German and Swiss immigrants. Regardless of barrel length, the chunky buttstocks and sliding wooden patchboxes evolved into the slender rifle with brass patchbox that was mostly seen by the 1770s.

The presence of a cheek piece, rear sight, patchbox, and rifle trigger guard are identifiers of a "rifle" whether the bore is rifled or smooth. Fowlers usually lack all of the above in addition to having thin muzzles.

FYI, Hudson Bay Fowlers and (European) Jaegers/rifles are specifically excluded from the KRA Annual Meeting/Show.